10-13-2016_Cover_Wide

by Katherine J. Wu
figures by Brad Wierbowski

Think of your most noticeable feature. Maybe it’s your radiant smile, or your long, piano-playing fingers. Maybe it’s your stellar jump shot, or the way you recite Shakespearean sonnets at the drop of a hat. Or maybe it’s your penchant for scientific knowledge. But whatever it is, for better or worse, it is probably not your most salient feature to the world around you. To others, our most salient feature is one that doesn’t make any of us very salient at all – a feature in which none of us had any say in, which was assigned at, or prior to, birth: are you male or female?

Gender identity haunts every aspect of our lives, dictating the outcomes of our conversations, our workplaces, our relationships – even our bath products. Before most infants are named, they are assigned a sex based on the appearance of their external genitalia by a third party. These decisions are dolled out in a typically binary fashion, with no expectations for ambiguity. This is the norm – but has this simplicity led us astray?

In March of this year, Governor Pat McCrory of North Carolina signed into law the Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act, banning individuals from public restrooms that do not correspond to their assigned biological sex. This controversial legislation was the first of its kind– though certainly not for lack of trying. So called “bathroom bills” have been within political radar since the introduction of public restrooms in the 19th century; dozens of states within the U.S, primarily in the Midwest and South, have attempted, but failed, to bring such bills into law in the past year. The charged political climate of the summer has yielded many tense conversations about gender and LGBT rights – and it’s clear that these discussions are long overdue. But if we are to regulate gender, we must first assess the extent of our knowledge on the topic. What do we know of the “causes” the phenomenon of transgender identity – and what does this mean for the future of transgender politics?

The ABC’s (and LGBTQQIAAP+2S’s) of Gender and Sexuality

First, some (controversial) definitions. It would be remiss to claim to be able to define or categorize all variations in human sexuality and gender (hence the continually lengthening acronyms used, sometimes tongue in cheek, by the community); one of the larger acronyms, LGBTQQIAAP, still humbly accepts that it is not all-inclusive. These lists, while not exhaustive, are exhausting. The labels are useful in some respects, much like any other label denoting origin or role – they help us navigate social situations and can often be signs of respect. It is a natural human inclination to categorize, but broad assumptions can also lead to stereotyping. To limit the scope of this article, we will focus on transgender identity.

Figure 1: An incomplete and incomprehensive representation of gender identity and sexual orientation. Transgender individuals are those who identify with a gender that differs from their assigned sex. This is a facet of identity that is completely distinct from sexual orientation. These graphs do not represent the full spectrum of either facet, as they are multidimensional. For instance, there may be genders that some identify with that are neither “male” nor “female. Furthermore, there are no “lines” that divide these identities, and they may be considered malleable and overlapping.
Figure 1: An incomplete and incomprehensive representation of gender identity and sexual orientation. Transgender individuals are those who identify with a gender that differs from their assigned sex. This is a facet of identity that is completely distinct from sexual orientation. These graphs do not represent the full spectrum of either facet, as they are multidimensional. For instance, there may be genders that some identify with that are neither “male” nor “female. Furthermore, there are no “lines” that divide these identities, and they may be considered malleable and overlapping.

Those persons who identify as transgender (the “T” in many queer community acronyms) are those who identify with a gender that differs from their assigned sex (Figure 1). This juxtaposes cisgender, or those who identify with their assigned gender. Though the typical assigned sexes are “male” and “female,” often designated at birth, being transgender does not limit gender identity to these two categories, as many who identify as transgender do not feel they are exclusively masculine or feminine. Importantly, transgender identity is independent of sexual orientation. The subset of transgender individuals who choose to undergo sexual reassignment surgery are often denoted as transsexual.

The transgender identity has long been associated with poor mental health, particularly the diagnoses of “gender identity disorder” and “gender dysphoria.” However, the World Health Organization is actively working towards declassifying transgender identity as a mental disorder, a change partially prompted by a recent study uncoupling the mental and physical health problems experienced by transgender people from their gender identity. Rather, those who had suffered ailments could vastly attribute their afflictions to societal stigma, discrimination, and violence.

“It’s All in Your Head” – Except When It’s Not

Sex determination – the way we are “coded” into a biological sex – is complicated in and of itself. There are far more options than just “male” or “female,” and countless instances of species that can actually transition from one sex to another within a single lifetime. With most mammals, however, the majority of individuals are cisgender male or female; transgender individuals are estimated to comprise about 0.3% of the adult U.S. population.

Little is known about the causes of transsexuality, and many of the studies that have been conducted – particularly psychological studies – have since been widely discredited (more on that later). However, scientists do seem to have some information on the biological basis of several factors.

First and foremost, is gender identity genetic? It seems the answer is yes – though, as with most traits involving identity, there is some environmental influence. One classic way for scientists to test whether a trait (which can be any characteristic from red hair to cancer susceptibility to love of horror movies) is influenced by genetics is twin studies. Identical twins have the exact same genetic background, and are usually raised in the same environment. Fraternal (nonidentical) twins, however, share only half their genes, but tend to also be raised in the same environment. Thus, if identical twins tend to share a trait more than fraternal twins, that trait is probably influenced by genetics. Several studies have shown that identical twins are more often both transgender than fraternal twins, indicating that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity. So, what genes might be responsible?

Figure 3: Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.Figure 2: Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.

In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex.

Interestingly, both teams discovered that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of cisgender women than men in both size and cell density, and that female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembling cisgender men. These differences remained even after the scientists took into account the fact that many transgender men and women in their study were taking estrogen and testosterone during their transition by including cisgender men and women who were also on hormones not corresponding to their assigned biological sex (for a variety of medical reasons). These findings have since been confirmed and corroborated in other studies and other regions of the brain, including a region of the brain called the sexually dimorphic nucleus (Figure 2) that is believed to affect sexual behavior in animals.

It has been conclusively shown that hormone treatment can vastly affect the structure and composition of the brain; thus, several teams sought to characterize the brains of transgender men and women who had not yet undergone hormone treatment. Several studies confirmed previous findings, showing once more that transgender people appear to be born with brains more similar to gender with which they identify, rather than the one to which they were assigned.

Interestingly, while the hormone treatments may have caused issues in the previous studies, they also gave scientists clues as to how these differences in brain anatomy may have arisen. Brain development is heavily influenced by the prenatal environment – what hormones the fetus is exposed to in its mother’s uterus. Some scientists believe that female-to-male transgender men, for instance, may have been exposed to inadequate levels of estrogen during development (Figure 3). This phenomenon could have two causes: 1) not enough estrogen in the fetus’s immediate environment, or 2) enough estrogen in the environment, but poor sensitivity in the fetus. Think of it like a cell phone tower controlling remote calls – the tower may not be producing enough signal (scenario 1), or the receiving phone may be unable to process the message (scenario 2). In either case, the call doesn’t make it through.

Figure 2: Possible scenarios underlying insufficient feminization. During normal feminization, sufficient estrogen is present in the fetal environment. The estrogen is recognized by fetal cells and triggers the development of a female fetus. In Scenario 1, very little estrogen is present in the fetal environment. Even though the fetal cells are capable of sensing estrogen, very little enters the fetal environment and the fetus is insufficiently feminized. In Scenario 2, there is enough estrogen in the fetal environment, but fetal cells are effectively “deaf” to the estrogen and the fetus is insufficiently feminized.Figure 3: Possible scenarios underlying insufficient feminization. During normal feminization, sufficient estrogen is present in the fetal environment. The estrogen is recognized by fetal cells and triggers the development of a female fetus. In Scenario 1, very little estrogen is present in the fetal environment. Even though the fetal cells are capable of sensing estrogen, very little enters the fetal environment and the fetus is insufficiently feminized. In Scenario 2, there is enough estrogen in the fetal environment, but fetal cells are effectively “deaf” to the estrogen and the fetus is insufficiently feminized.

The amount of estrogen in the fetal environment is a little tough to measure – but there appears to be some evidence for transgender individuals having poor hormonal sensitivity in the womb. A team of researchers found that the receptor for estrogen (that is, the cell phone receiving the signal) seems to be a little worse at receiving signal in female-to-male transgender men – think a 2001 flip phone trying to process photos from Instagram. Thus, the signal doesn’t come through as clearly, and the externally “female” fetus ends up more masculinized.

The psychological studies that have attempted to unravel the causes of transsexuality, on the other hand, have largely failed to gain traction in modern times. For many years, psychologists characterized transgender identity as a psychological disorder. Some, for instance, believed it was a coping mechanism to “rectify” latent feelings of homosexuality, or the result of environmental trauma or “poor” parenting. No studies have been able to demonstrate this, however, and these “findings” are considered outdated and have been highly criticized for their discriminatory implications. Other psychologists have attempted to differentiate groups of transsexuals based on factors such as IQ and ethnicity; similarly, these theories have been overwhelmingly rejected due to poor study design and issues with ethics.

And so, while the list of causes for transgender identity continues to grow, it has become quite clear that it is not a conscious choice – similar to what has been described for the “reasons” behind sexual orientation. Still, at least 63% of transgender individuals experience debilitating acts of discrimination on a regular basis, including incarceration, homelessness, and physical assault. When about 1.7% of the population is in some way affected by cases of ambiguous genitalia at birth, these findings seem staggering.

So, where do we stand on transgender issues? Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary; it may not even be a linear spectrum. Like many other facets of identity, it can operate on a broad range of levels and operate outside of many definitions. And it also appears that gender may not be as static as we assume. At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological. These individuals are not suffering a mental illness, or capriciously “choosing” a different identity. The transgender identity is multi-dimensional – but it deserves no less recognition or respect than any other facet of humankind.

Katherine Wu is a third-year graduate student in the BBS program at Harvard University.

This article is part of our Special Edition: Dear Madam/Mister President.

For more information:

  1. For a previous SITN blog article discussing sex determination systems, see: http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/im-xy-know-sex-determination-systems-101/
  2. For a fairly comprehensive discussion on the genetics of gender, see: http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
  3. For a more complete discussion on queer acronyms, see: https://decahedronofq.wordpress.com/what-is-lgbtqqiaap/

Note (August 10, 2017): We will no longer be accepting some types of comments on this article. We are open to conversations about science whether you agree or disagree with the science presented here. We will not, however, be accepting comments that are personally accusatory or inflammatory towards trans people in general or specific commenters (including, but not limited to, those who have identified themselves as trans). If you have questions about why your comment was not accepted, please e-mail us at sitnbostonblog (at) gmail.

Save

Save

Save

Save

Save

333 thoughts on “Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity

  1. Can you send me the bibliographies for the research articles you refer to please? It all sounds very logical to me. I would like to share them with people I know who are skeptical of the research.

    1. Hi Liane, All of the studies referenced are linked throughout the article. Let us know if you have trouble accessing them.

      1. I wanted to thank you for this article. I have two trans teenagers. My 18 year old I had gave up for adoption and we recently reconnected. My 15 year old I’ve raised from birth. I myself would have identified as either bigender or gender fluid at a young age if the term existed back then. I identify now as demigirl. My teens are both gender fluid but lean more towards ftm. I have PCOS so I produce more testosterone than your typical woman. I have two older cis daughters who were born prior to me developing PCOS. This article makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you again.

      2. Hello, I looked through the article and found many useful things. However, I’m missing one, the study it cites that uncouples transsexuality from other mental disorders or problems. I’ve been talking with people, some very skeptical people, who insist that transsexuality cannot possibly cause as much trouble, particularly rates of depression and other mental disorders, without being a mental illness. Essentially an assertion that harassment cannot be the cause of such a bit difference. I wouldn’t know the facts one way or the other, and I was hoping to see that study that proves such an assertion wrong linked here. Where can I find it?

        1. When an individual faces social stigmatizing for no other reason then being denied thier self expression. That is valid enough reason that they would be suffering. The issue is with society, not the individual!

    2. It sounds logical? Are you okay?

      This is the most ridiculous study I’ve ever seen. There are 2 genders. That is that.

          1. Hello Billy Bob,

            Anne Lawrence speaks for a fringe of people who define themselves as “men trapped in men’s bodies.” She focuses on a group of fetishistic transvestites and while there is no doubt they exist, generalizing their singular affliction to genuine transsexuals jumps the tracks. Her one-theory-fits-all assertions do not take into account the large number of trans folk who do not fit her self-professed model.

          2. Here is conclusion of the original study that Anne A. Lawrence uses in her critique: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/22/3/1027.long

            “Changes in these parameters could affect the development of gender identity but not immediately result in overt changes in the volume or neuronal number of the BSTc. Alternatively, it must also be taken into consideration that changes in BSTc volume in male-to-female transsexuals may be the result of a failure to develop a male-like gender identity. In summary, our finding of a sex difference in BSTc volume only in adulthood suggests that marked sex-dependent organizational changes in brain structure are not limited to early development but may extend into adulthood.”

            The study is pretty much only says that the development of the brain structure may extend into adulthood. The faulty conclusion that Lawrence is drawing here is the assumption all trans people start their transition in the late 20s or later, but claim they knew they were a different sex than assigned to them at birth at a young age. She insists that this is impossible, because we don’t have a fully formed Neuroanatomy that represents this until later in life. She then makes some blatant assumptions about sexual orientation and the implication of the sexual identity aspects of our brain, because she believes trans individuals are at the heart individuals with a sexual fetish to believe they are the opposite sex. You can see that view thoroughly debunked by respectable scientists everywhere. More importantly, she is attempting to use a sample size of seven individuals to make sweeping generalizations about how anatomy works, even though one of the individuals does not fit her methodology. (She even mentions that within her notes). Her entire premise is that any time trans individuals have a neuroanatomy that reflects their identified gender as opposed to their sex assigned at birth, it had to be because of late stage hormone therapy. But, the original studies that are linked here accounted for that, because that’s an obvious thing to probably look for before you go making scientific conclusions.

            In short, her criticism is written top-down, where she went in looking for answers and bent the information fit her model. There is a reason why scientists tend to draw similar conclusions based on peer reviewed work. That’s how science works, that’s how it is meant to work. Because when valid criticism arises, objectivity allows us to reexamine our understanding of the world and gives us an interest into conducting more studies. If there was validity to her criticisms, this would be the new norm. It’s obscure and only used as a weaponized attack on the authenticity of trans individuals, because it isn’t.

      1. Well, let’s just stop doing science and come up with a new discipline: Everything Justin thinks is true. No more need for research; we’ll just ask you anytime we want to know anything.

      2. why don’t you quit being close-minded? Yes, there are two genders but a person may feel they aren’t either or feel they are both. I don’t really understand how impudent you can be. People don’t shit on you for being male or whatever, so there’s really no need to say something like the study is ridiculous. It’s just like saying the study to find out what causes cancer is ridiculous. This is what’s wrong with people. Why don’t you just be a decent human being and accept people?

        1. You’re not accepting him for being “closed minded” and being “what’s wrong with people”. Why don’t you just be a decent human being and accept him?

          Also your statement about there being two genders but people could feel like the other or neither is a simple contradiction. It’s impossible for there to be 2 genders and to not be either, that would mean there is a third gender, the absence of the previous two.

          Likewise while a mind may experience a large number of things. A delusional man may think he hears a phone ringing. The phone does not exist except in his mind. Him hearing it does not make it real. Likewise thinking oneself is another gender or not a gender does not make it so.

          1. “Would you like Pepsi, or Coke?”

            “Neither.”

            “I NEVER SAID THAT WAS AN OPTION!”

            I don’t even feel like making fun of you for the rest of the absurd conclusions you’ve come to.

          2. this is completly incorrect your confusing sex with gender and gender there is more then 2 i know best of who i am and i am a girl i live by my gender identity not my uncomfortable unchosen biology noone ever should be forced to live by biology if they dont want to
            i am a girl thats all that matters there is no room for bigotry you are not me therefore you can not tell me who i am
            i am a girl end of discussion

          3. Biologically and neurologically there are more then two genders that what these studies st Harvard and other universities show. It’s also documented historically for thousands of years and numerous cultures

      3. your arguing science solely cause you want to live in a black and white world not caring about the damage to others it may cause think about it and accept the world is not black and white these studies dont effect you so your reason to argue them is only bias and only causes harm to transgender individual
        its easy to denie facts to avoid seing the truth in fear of a change
        but can you be strong enough to accept those different then you
        sex and gender are not the same this study is about gender identity and its differentiating from sex

        1. Brava! I think you hit the nail on the head. I am a cisgender female but have Trans friends. People who know nothing will argue with you because they feel threatened. They have to deny it out of fear that someone will think they are Trans or Gay. It drives me nuts. I can’t imagine what you endure. Trans people who come out are some of the most courageous people I know.

        2. I am sorry where do feelings or damage come into the scientific method? While it may or may not be black and white science is Boolean. It is either true or untrue. Regardless of who is harmed in the process.

          1. a transgirl only wants to live there life and seen fully as a girl they truly are a girl living there own life the sooner ppl stop all this anti trans nonsence and let everyone live and be seen as them the better

          2. Actually science is not Boolean….its merely a practical means of observing behavior and structure of our natural and physical world. A means to understand how things work basically. And throughout the known history of living things…behavior and genetics of living organisms has been inconsistent and continues to evolve…so it’s important to remember that many things concerning science can and will most definitely change.

      4. I think you may be confusing sex with gender, Justin. The fact that we are a sexually dimorphic species means there are two sexes. Gender, according to the World Health Organisation, “refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as the norms, roles and relationships that exist between them. Gender expectations vary between cultures and can change over time.” I certainly don’t think it’s helpful to the progress of humankind to talk of there being many genders – rather we should accept that some men are more what we think of as ‘feminine’ and vice versa and accept people as they are. In other words, abolish the idea of gender altogether.

        1. I agree sort of but according to some biological studies certain intersex is a third sex . There are XY intersex people which are AIS and then there are others that may have two sex chromosome, one XY and XX, etc. There are also “Syndromes” where a person with XY chromosomes has ovaries, etc. Sex isnt as simple or only XY and XX. Gender is a real thing as well. The is psychological evidence of it. Its as real and important to a person as money(which has importance due to society). We cannot abolish gender when we naturally have gender identities or not. Having a certain gender also can cause some people some stress and cant just easily think “Gender doesnt exist thus I have none”.

          1. Yes, as with any complex biological system, errors expressing genotype can occur but we shouldn’t use rare chromosomal abnormalities and disorders of sexual development to obfuscate from the fact that we are indeed a sexually dimorphic species. And of course gender is a ‘real thing’ but that isn’t a scientifically valid or helpful description – the question is where gender id comes from and that question is far from settled.

        2. I’m with you, Maria. I am comfortable being called a female because of my biology, but prefer my gender as demigirl/gender fluid. It seems to make much more sense to just have male, female, and intersex, and then realize that genitals do not necessarily make a person a certain way. We shouldn’t even have to identify our sex to anyone if we choose not to. Use neutral pronouns for everyone. Then it doesn’t matter what “gender” you choose to “identify” as. You are who you are and if you want to reproduce, then you can find someone else who would be compatible for that. We shouldn’t need all the gender terms.

      5. Justin… “This is the most ridiculous study I’ve ever seen. There are 2 genders. That is that.”

        Where have I seen that kind of comment before?
        Oh, wait… now I remember… “The Science Is Settled… MMGW is a Fact.”
        You’re a parody of yourself.

        1. stop confusing sex with gender and gender identity the facts have been proven biology only effect sex and genitalia but not your gender or gender identity

          dont hate the real facts just cause your tiny brain cant understand them gender identity is and will always be the real you not biology biology is only body apearence nothing more

          1. I believe you need to stop confusing transvestism aka transgender with transsexualism.
            Within the theory of transsexualism sex and gender mean the exact same thing. Gender is just polite way to say sex without implying the reproductive parts of it.
            I believe I believe you also stated people should stop using the word transsexual.
            Instead I going you stop misusing it and stop telling people not to use the word.
            From your comments I have seen enough to call bs on you.
            You state you are 100% a girl than state you are a “trans woman” which is nothing but a PC way of referring to yourself as a she-male. You cannot be a trans woman without also linking being a male to it aka she-male.
            I just see you as another autogynephillic terf lover helping them trash the word transsexual and the science.

          2. sex is your anatomy
            gender is your identity
            transvestite is someone who still identifies based on biology but fully dresses up as the opposite sex not to be confused with crossdresser crossdressers just like wearing the other sex’s clothes
            transgender someone who identifies as a gender outside there biology
            transsexual recently redefined but still misused actually means a transgender who transitions for a sexual purpose

            and i am fully a girl my anatomy does not change that all your comment is full of is bigotry and bs nothing more

          3. Actually, no. There have been plenty of studies proving that biology does have an effect on gender (gender meaning people’s behaviour in accordance to masculinity or femininity). Biology doesn’t have an effect on gender EXPRESSION. Gender and gender expression are not the same thing.

          4. in most cases thats due to society truth is way to many cisgendered ppl refuse certain interests or behaviors solely due to gender roles and no other reason
            alot of ppl are caught in the middle which when you really look at it only makes sence
            but most ppl grow to fear society or fear being different so in many cases ppl over composate by if your born male try to do things more masculine out of fear of ppl thinking there feminine or vicaversa for females
            this is more true for trans ppl in hiding also why this trans military ban will cost the us almost $1 billion dollars
            we hide when we fear society and to hide we over compensate in a lot of cases this causes further harm especially in transgender troops and can create injuries where otherwise there would be none costing them alot more money in the long run

            my point in this most of that is caussed by society your biology really does not effect interest or who you are we live in a damaged world
            im not saying theres a mass amount of transgender ppl what im saying is many ppl deny singular interest because of society its easy to denie 1 single interest without it hurting in the way trans ppl in hiding hurt and its easy to tell yourself that you dont like that 1 simple interest to a point where you believe it even tho it never makes it true
            trans ppl is not 1 interest but several that go beyond interest to liking 1’s way of life and stigmitation of being reffered to as such

            its a complicated scenario but biology does not effect interests or who you really are

          5. The following is something that I posted on facebook to explain what being transgender meant to us, and why it’s a problem. And you’re right, biology does have an effect on gender expression, but not the effect that you’re thinking. If you look at the various comments on this article you’ll see that there are commonalities between the brains of cis people and trans people. Not major structures, not all consistent, but a few of these features are consistent. It’s these consistent bits of our brain that determine which social group we identify most strongly with.

            An answer to why we want to transition?
            This is something I posted on a comment in response to a question on a philosophy forum. They seemed to find it helpful, hopefully others will too. Note, that this answer doesn’t cover non-binary, Genderfluid, or non-gendered, in any sort of depth, just the basic top level male/female.
            Their question, what is gender, and why are people transgender?
            Long story short, Sex is what’s between your legs. Gender is what’s between your ears.
            In society there are 2 major social groups that people belong to, Male and Female, and people that are Transgender were assigned to the wrong group at birth, so they may belong to the other group, neither group, flit between the groups, or be somewhere in the middle.
            The major social group that you belong to is driven by minute differences in the brains of people, by which I mean a few thousand to maybe 1/2 a million cells, which given that there are well over 80 billion cells in our brain is a minute amount.
            This was a follow up question asking for more information as to why people want to transition.
            Because we identify as the other gender, we look around at the media, advertising, porn, people, etc. and see bodies that don’t look like ours. So for some people that are only slightly affected, being able to dress and identify with that social group may be enough. Other people may need to take hormones to gain the secondary sexual characteristics of their gender (which is the largest group of M2F’s) along with what is needed to remove the visible secondary sexual characteristics of their assigned gender. The last group need to have confirmation surgery in order to fit in (facial feminisation surgery, top surgery – having your boobs removed and your nipple moved, and bottom surgery), of which most F2M’s will eventually choose to have top surgery, but the other two surgeries are less common because they are so drastic, and in the case of bottom surgery for F2M’s not very good.

      6. As far as the transgendered issue, I believe that this is a mental illness. You can turn a hotdog into a taco, but you will never actually be a woman. Biologically you are and always will be a man. Just because someone puts on a Chewbacca costume, that doesn’t make them Chewbacca & I feel that we are doing these people a huge disservice by legitimizing this as socially acceptable. It keeps people from actually getting the help they need and I think that’s really shameful.

        1. you cannot change your gender identity anymore then you can willingly change your favorite foods or movies or anything
          transgender is not a mental illness your biology is not a deffining factor a transgender is someone whos gender identity is far more different then there biology i sayu far more different cause those only slightly different may not care enough to transition
          i lived 24 painful years as a male i knew my gender identity when i was 5 i hid who i was really deep all i ever wanted was to greow up as a girl i liked dresses and many girly things but was to afraid to admit it almost died once (but recently realised another issue as a kid should have killed me due to the extreme discomfort of hiding who i was but somehow didnt i developed severe fatal insomnia for way longer then anyone should have i was unable to sleep wasnt til recently i realised that should have killed me but discomfort is not a mental illness) gender dysphoria is a form of deppression that is created when your mind is no longer comfortable with how ppl see you what you wear things you do but is not something every trans person develops and is created by society
          its not a mental illness to identify outside of your unchosen biology but by rejecting who you are or hiding it only creates a form of deppression that will hurt you more and more

          the happiest day of my life was the first day i went out in public as a girl cause it was the first day that i felt like me the first day ppl saw what i was hiding for years the first day i felt free
          being yourself is not a mental illness being happy is not a mental illness your the 1 who lives the life so live your own life not someone elses

          proud to be a girl

          1. First, you claim that it’s all biological. I could buy that, except there’s one problem. You end by saying how happy you were when you went out IDENTIFYING as a girl. See, there are no biological reasons for girls wanting to wear dresses or paint their nails or any of the other things you did to make yourself *feel* like a girl. You gender is purely a social construct, much like being goth or a jock or whatever.
            You desire to be recognized as a girl is purely social and psychological. You desire for others to recognize you as YOU want them to; not how society tells them they must.
            Now, don’t get me wrong, if you want to go out dressed as a girl and be called a girl’s name and all that other societal jazz, I’m OK with that. I’ll even play along. But once you step into the locker room or shower with my little girl or wife, we are going to have problems. Like others have said here, gender is different from sex. That locker room that is separated by “Men” and “Women” are not separated by your gender. They are separated by your sex. Now, I don’t know if it’s true that it helps your fragile little psyche to actually use the lady’s room. Frankly, I don’t care because the psyches of the biological women in my life are much more important than yours. Once your clothes are off, there is no difference between you and any other man. I get that you don’t want to change or shower in front of men, but neither do the ladies. So rather than worry about your own discomfort, why don’t you take a little time and consider EVERYONE else’s. I’ve made my decision on who I’m going to back.

          2. Oppression and depression are not synonymous. Black females being one of the most oppressed groups have low depression and virtually non existent suicide rates. So how can society be to blame for it? The very definition of self esteem is that it is self administered. If you require others acceptance that by definition does nothing for your self esteem. Suicide rates among trans-genders is just a shade under schizophrenics. While gays do not have even close to the same suicide rates despite oppression. However both Body Dysmorphic Disorder and transgender have extremely high suicide rates upwards of 30 to 40% some years. And both have the same complaint of not feeling comfortable in their own bodies. We treat body dysmophia by pushing Therapy and acceptance of their bodies and we treat transgender by carving them up like a turkey. Neither disorders suicide rate drops even post op. So why are we not teaching transgenders to accept their body as made by nature?

          3. a transgirl is a girl thats all they want to be seen as they commit suicide when they feel they cant be there true self
            you can never change 1’s gender identity and even so much as try will hurt them especially kids
            let a transgirl be a girl a trans boy be a boy and the world will be alot better

          4. @ArcherB

            As transgender people take hormones they take on the physical traits of the gender they are taking the hormones for. Given that this means that M2F people will look more feminine (including developing breasts and the muscle and fat distribution of a woman), and F2M people will look more masculine (including developing a beard, deep voice, and muscle and fat distribution of a man).

            Are you honestly saying that you would prefer someone that looks like a lumberjack, with a beard and a deep voice shares a changing room with your wife and children just because they were born a female? As your argument cuts both ways.

            Basically men and women are defined by what we see, not what the genitals of that person are.

            Also, once the clothes are off, there is still a big difference between an M2F person who’s been on hormones for a few years and a cisman, breasts, decreased body hair, size of the testes, etc. The same is true for F2M people, they have more muscle, hair, beard, lower voice, etc. compared to a cis woman. This is before we start getting into any surgery concerns.

            So do you want to actually think about your argument and give it another go? Or are you going to stick to your fear driven thoughts that doesn’t take into account the reality that most Transgender people live with?

      7. Lol, tighten up those blinders my friend, refuse to be confused by 50+ years of science and research, and dig your heels in, it’s going to get bumpy riding that old stubborn horse from here….

        1. ppl are just to stubbern to accept reality they want to hold on dearly to what they thought they knew cause they fear change even when it doesnt effect them at all
          change is comming ppl are growing to accept reality and we as the lgbt comunity will continue to fight for a truly equal world

          1. “ppl are just to stubbern to accept reality they want to hold on dearly to what they thought they knew cause they fear change even when it doesnt effect them at all
            change is comming ppl are growing to accept reality and we as the lgbt comunity will continue to fight for a truly equal world”

            Good Lord! Your ability to correctly spell words is at a 4th-grade level.

            Now, you go right ahead and keep preaching about the changing times. Meanwhile, the rest of the world will be busy living our lives, trying to stay clear of people like you. There is no future where the majority of the world will ever, for the sake of relationships/dating/sex, have any desire to treat transgender people as the biological sex they wish they had been born as. It’s just so batsh@t CRAZY how so many of you trans people actually believe that your words can someday convince a straight cisgender guy like myself to be okay with being with someone that is a biological male and has a damn penis. Good luck with that.

            BTW’ you claimed to be done responding to my posts. Let’s hope that you can keep your word.

        2. He’s got a point but he just doesn’t understand that gender is not biological sex. What he is referring to is biological sex. Not counting the 2% of the world that have an intersex condition, the other 98% of the world are either biological male or biological female. The last 50-years has not changed that fact. All of the things that define biological sex are still exactly the same today as they were 50-years ago.

          We get it. The trans community wants change. You all want it yesterday but the change that you really want is nowhere near in sight. A transgender “woman” can not become a biological female and will always be a biological male. Most people in the world, have no desire to any type of romantic/sexual relationship with a transgender person. Exploring the human mind, talking about trans issues, are things that are never going to change the above. What will change is that more of society will begin to accept trans people in every way possible excluding sexual relationships. As I’ve said many times by now, there is no future where straight cisgender people are talked into believing that a trans “woman” with a penis, is no big deal. That is not how reality works and that is not how mother nature works.

      8. I realize this was posted a while ago, still I need to respond. If you feel that there are only two genders, why are you seeking these kinds of articles out? Clearly you have questions, as do I. While I cannot begin to imagine the things that those who do not identify as their assigned gender go through, I understand looking in the mirror and not liking what I see. That is difficult, I can change many of the things I do not like, and it would be uncontroversial. I would probably even get more compliments. I know that I would feel better if those around me saw the me that I feel like I am. Being a cisegender women is hard enough, the pressure is crazy at best. Being a person that is perceived as one gender but feeling like the opposite, or both, or none would be devastating. If that isn’t easy to understand, here is actual science telling you how it works. Even if you can’t understand the people, or the science, how about just being for humanity? Every living being deserves respect and equality, that is simple.

      9. Okay, a male who has gone through transition surgery is no longer a male, but a female. She didn’t become some third gender.

        1. gender is different then sex and there are more then 2 genders non binary is considered a gender in its own as it means you do not relate to either male or female
          all others have there differences not woth explaining them all but genitalia doesnt define gender so someone with male anatomy doesnt need the op to be female gender as many trans ppl cant afford this op it still doesnt effect who they are
          im pre op but i was always a girl

          always a girl always myself

      10. Seriously! Your attempting to have a valid opinion simply by suggesting your belief? Do you have proof? Have you studied gender and all its variables? What is your level of education or even experience with anyone who is transgender? …….. Yeah thought so!

  2. Instead of classifying brains as male or female, why not embrace the diversity of brains in a particular sex and accept that whatever brain that inhabits a body, be it a male or female body, is the brain of that corresponding sex.
    It would also be interesting to see a study of the brains of ultra-femme men and butch women to see if they are similar to the majority of brains of the opposite sex. In addition to that, compare them to the brains of transgender individuals of their corresponding biological sex.

    1. Cheryl Li, I like your ideas about the comparative studies. If you don’t mind, and if you have by now found some new articles, would you share your research on the different possible studies you mentioned thus far? Links and Article Heads would be great. It’s nice to see some similar thoughts on the topic (in addition to a few other posts here).

      1. If we have male and female brains and the cause of transgender or transexuality is “Biological” then this blows up the entire argument that gender is a “social construct”

        1. But we don’t have male and female brains unless we choose to label them that way. At best there is greater diversity in male brains and female brains than previously supposed and gender roles are too rigid.

    2. Alas, it does not work that way. Mostly transsexual do not want to embrace the proposed diversity, although that is the right of people who do wish to and I support their right to express themselves in that way 100% as a basic human right. Transsexual suffer from dysphoria which can be compared to having a throbbing psychic toothache, or if you have the good fortune of never having had a toothache, then maybe a persistent itch you cannot scratch.

      There is psychological damage that transsexuals go through. We have some of the highest rates of suicide of any group and suffer a high rate of homicide. This stems from societal rejection (sometimes from nuclear families) and from the persistent feeling that our bodies and social roles are plain wrong. However, with treatment, we can get relief. and the longitudinal outcomes are good as report recently in the prestigious journal “Pediatrics.”

      http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

      My sincere hope is that another generation does not have to go through an irreversible and disfiguring puberty before getting medical help. Dr. Norman Spack, MD, now in retirement it seems, over at Boston Child Hospital and affiliated with Harvard Medical School has been instrumental in bringing what is often called the Dutch Protocol to help trans youth.

      In short, we do not need to study these children and leave them in bodies they loath. We need to help them.

      1. Many children feel like they are transgender simply because they don’t fit into the gender roles given to them perfectly, and grow out of it. It would be infinitely more harmful to children to force transitions because they feel like they’re the opposite sex than to wait until after puberty. Children are unreliable, and the younger they are the more unreliable they are. When i was 2 I referred to myself as a girl because I had it in my mind that only girls liked cooking, and I loved my sister’s easy bake. Thank God my parents didn’t force me to live like a girl just because I insisted for months that I was one.

        1. Hello Ty,
          It would be wise for all of us to use “I” statements and not to generalize about others or about “harm.”
          Here are my “I” statements. I was assigned boy at birth. I asserted myself to be a girl at 2-1/2. I did not grow out of it. I was deeply harmed by having to go through an irreversible and disfiguring male puberty. I was reliable in my assertions. I was not a girl because I liked “cooking.” I hate my parents because they forced me to live like a boy.

          I insisted I was a girl for 20 years and your 30 days playing with an easy bake oven testimony a hollow testimony to the real pain than real transsexuals dealt with for decades. Stop forcing your false narratives down the throats of real transsexuals.

          Shame on you!

          V-

          1. Virginia,
            You’ve said ” I was not a girl because I liked “cooking.” ” I get what you mean by that. But what you haven’t said is why you asserted yourself to be a girl as a young child. Can you explain why you did and what it felt like?

          2. You have to be kidding me… Deeply harmed… disfiguring male puberty…. grow the fuck up. You act as if your parents could have stopped that. Lucky for you there is in-depth science now and you can live as you please. Also, that isn’t your parents responsiblity, it’s yours. Shame on you for hating your parents for doing what they thought to be right.

        2. You don’t have to force children to transition, you can instead take them seriously and the doctors can prescribe puberty blockers so that they can postpone puberty until they are sure/reach an age where they can legally make the decision.

      2. i want to correct some outdated terminology in that
        transgender is what you want to say in that not transexual most ppl are trying to throw transexual meaning away cause it used to mean post op however the terminology was later to define a trans who has the opperation for a sexual reason as oppose to an emotional 1

        also thanks to studies and research blockers can be highly reversible now but hrt cant however tho i agree that diversity is great this research can be used to really help trans youth if we can match a simular pattern in trans youth as we did in adults this is theoretical
        every like every dislike orientation identity hoppy ect relates 1 way or another to your brain
        this could be used theoreticly to determine a guidline of interests by examining it
        this is of course theoretical but worth some testing

    3. I like your thinking. I’m on the transgender spectrum. I have an opinion, I have no evidence, but simply an intuition, that gender as an expression is commonly different in every individual. It isn’t until we juxtapose the extremes (very different in each person not dependent on genitailia, but lessen with anyone with a penis and testicals as evident by the difference in tolerable expressions on women compared to the intolerable expressions of men) that we see gender variables of expression exist in everyone of us and are only limited by social acceptence.

      1. I’ve just posted a reply to Sam above where I included a copy of a response to someone else. Long story short, I claimed that men and women are actually just large social group in society that almost everyone belongs to. Being transgender just means that you don’t belong to the group that you were assigned to at birth.

        All of the other problems associated with being transgender basically stem from that, as we look at people that are members of that group and at ourselves and see the ways that we don’t conform, in clothing as well as style. At the same time as society is forcing us to conform to this other social group.

        I wonder if people see the same sort of reactions in cis people that are forced to conform to a social group that they don’t actually belong to.

    1. Thanks for your comment!

      Observational studies are typically compared with randomized controlled experiments. It’s true that observational studies cannot, by themselves, allow scientists to draw definitive conclusions, but observational studies almost always form the foundation of later experiments that confirm findings. In fact, most of the studies of human behavior, nutrition, and longevity (among many other fields) are observational studies. ANY kind of study can be flawed, but we take care to only cite articles that have been peer-reviewed and use appropriate statistical tests and methods. Also, importantly, many studies of human genes rely on observational studies. This is often how genetic diseases are identified, including Huntington’s, sickle cell anemia, and cystic fibrosis. This is because we can’t do randomized controlled studies on humans – like making human “gene deletions.” These would be unethical! Thus, we have to rely on observations that yield consistent results (and if they don’t, we revise our theories and look into something else).

      It’s actually unlikely that there will be “a transgender gene” identified – but it’s an interesting thought! However, just like there isn’t “a logical gene” or “a Republican gene” or “a tall gene,” there is unlikely to be a single gene, or even a strict set of genes, that defines transgender identity (or any other form of identity). Many of the aforementioned traits or aspects of identity may have roots in certain genes that affect many parts of a person, and environment can certainly interact with genes.

      Hope that helps to clarify!

      1. Thanks for your response.
        We agree, so far there is no way to “demonstrate” with these observational studies that the transgender identity is something Biological. In this sense I agree with Marshall, some expressions in the article are just too pretentious (“Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary”).
        The studies are very interesting, but don’t serve as fundament of the conclusions alleged.

          1. From my limited understanding of your link, I’m under the impression that one’s 23rd chromosome pair determines sex. However in rare cases mutations and abnormalities may alter the number of sex chromosomes, or cause the opposite genitalia to develop in xx or xy humans. Is this correct?

            If so, it would appear that biological sex is binary, regardless of the genetic code behind the outcome. If a human with 3 x chromosomes conceives a child with a xyy human, isn’t one a biological female, and the other a biological male? Or are you stating that these chromosomal abnormalities represent different sexes?

          2. That is incorrect. Biological sex in mammals is very binary. The only two gamete options are ova or spermatozoa. Sexual development may be a sloppy(er) process but there is no inbetween gamete that is produced.

      2. So are you saying there is no gene that determines “male” gender and no gene that determines “female” gender? I am not talking about out of the ordinary examples of this condition or that condition possibly having effects on how those genes develop in a minute number of people. I mean on a regular without mitigating factors basis. Because if there is, then your argument of there being no genes for logic, republicans, and so forth is just a way to insult the intelligence of others while in some half ass way trying to avoid answering the question properly because the answer to that question does not suit your personal beliefs. And that is what you are doing with such an answer – mocking others to coverup your desire to not have an honest discussion on this topic where you properly answer questions even if their answers do not suit your purposes. You know the correct answer to that question.

        The answer is that there currently is no known gene or genetic marker that can be directly linked to being a “transgender gene”. There are some hypothesis on it, but nothing that can be proven at this time. And as your own answer say, such a gene is likely to never be found. With that we can finally break through to the reality of the situation. There is no gene for transgender. There are conditions that can play an impact on how strongly one’s gender develops as they mature. There are things that can happen that play a role in gender identity. BUT those things are more rare exceptions than anything else. The reality of it all is that we are born with genetic make ups that can be tested and verified as either male or female. This is scientific fact. Any other identity or other such goobedlygook is something completely different. Not saying some people can’t be transgendered or have mental, hormonal, or physical attributes or sociological factors or other life events that lead them to identifying as transgendered, but in their genetic makeup they are either male or female. There is nothing to debate there.

        1. Transgenderism has been shown to have genetic influence as described in the article. But there is no single gene that determines someone’s gender. I hope that answers the question you say we’re evading.

          Until very recently, there were also no known genes that determined one’s height.

          Just because there’s not a single gene that determines a characteristic or because we haven’t found the genes that determine it doesn’t mean we can’t tell if a trait is genetically influenced. It’s only recently that we’ve been able to identify specific genes linked to specific traits. But if you asked a farmer centuries ago about inheritance, they would be able to tell you that certain traits are inherited generation to generation.

          1. I agree the genes have not been found but when they are that would make transgender treatable inutero making it possibly non existent. Lack of existence makes fighting for permanent rights kinda moot point. It would be like putting the dodo on the endangered species list. Same for a gay gene or series of genes.

        2. Australians did a study that found issues with the SRY gene in male to female transsexuals.
          Sadly large amounts of the brain and genetic research into the causes of transsexualism have been conducted outside the U.S because of prejudice both inside and outside the academic world.
          I believe the use of the word transgender relates to that prejudice.
          I know of no brain or chromosome research that has been conducted on those who identify as other than male or female.
          Also consider how the lgbt labels and grouping support heterosexism and for lack of a better word ” cisgender” privilege, as well as homophobia and transphobia.

        3. Here is a Popular Science article about the sry gene link to transsexualism.
          http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-11/discovery-transsexual-gene-raises-more-questions-answers
          Also consider given the social objections to transsexualism which is even more so than to the problematic transgender umbrella term how hard it is to get funding for the research.
          Add to that objections by the transgender leadership about studying transsexuals by sexual orientation.
          Those who know the research well know transvestites as well as other forms of pseudo at ran asexual a have been allowed to transition. The word transgender comes from that and a hatred towards transsexuals by lesbian feminist.
          You can read the book “the transsexual dynasty the making of the she-male” by Janice Raymond and “the empire strikes back a post transsexual manifesto” by Sandy Stone to see there are real problems with the professional adoption of the transgender label as unethical and crossing the line into illegal human experimentation.

      3. Other than humans, has it been observed in nature? If so, perhaps genes can be identified by comparing genomes?

        1. unlike homosexuality, exactly how are we supposed to observe transgenderism in nature (beyond literally sex-changing frogs and such)? you do get that the whole entire issue here is that everyone thinks it’s all in our heads, right? you gonna go up to gay penguins in the wild and ask them how they identify?

    2. Genes — there are XX and XY. These genes set up the potential in the womb for natal development (e.g. esgtrogen/testosterone exposure) which may or may not be fully received/metabolized by the fetus. Accordingly, sex expression in the fetus is “nurture” in a biological sense. The genes determine sex, but the environment in the womb (nurture) results in the expression of trans-gender.

      1. XX and XY are not genes, they are (pairs of) chromosomes. Multiple genes are found on each of the chromosomes. While there may be certain genes that determine a single trait, often there are traits that are determined by multiple genes. As this article asserts, it may be a combination of genes on these x and y chromosomes that determine gender. Here is more information on that topic: http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask456

      1. Many if not most “birth defects” are genetic. Not sure what point you’re trying to make in any event.

  3. This article is highly subjective and makes false presumptions. For example, it correctly points out the scarcity and questionable legitimacy of evidence surrounding transgender and its causes, then says “Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary”. In fact, there is no scientific consensus that gender isn’t binary. What we do know is that biological gender is indeed binary (as the article correctly states), and as far as we know, biology describes the totality of our gender experience. The rest is entirely speculation, most of it politicized, based on scant, often dated or discredited studies with hypothetical conclusions that establish nothing close to a consensus.

    The article makes no mention of the numerous similarities between Gender Dysphoria and other cognitive illnesses like BDD, Anorexia, BIID, and Schizophrenia; all of which are disorders of body image or delusional perceptions and which come with the same level of “certainty” that transgender people experience. Rather than inventing a mythical “brain gender” unsupported by science, the far simpler explanation is that trans is a variant on other body image disorders that often (but not always) manifests as an identification with the opposite sex. It comes with many of the same co-morbidities of other cognitive illnesses, and it can respond to drug/therapy treatment in some people, also like other mental illnesses.

    I could go on about the reasons transgender is much better explained as an illness of illusion, like anorexia, but I’ll end here. Just don’t look to this article as an accurate representation of the science because it’s not.

    1. This article is written based on scientific studies. If you would like to claim that it’s an inaccurate representation of the science, please provide a set of scientific studies to back yourself up. We seek to always represent the science fairly.

      1. As the author, it is YOUR responsibility to provide cites and resources to justify the position that you hold or the findings your deduce from the research. You provide none. So you’re asking someone else to provide evidence to disprove what you wrote. You have that backwards.

      2. In the article it pointed out that other scientific studies were debunked and discredited, but why? What makes the study of transgenderism and how “Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary” so credited? You cannot prove your point without backing it up with a source, that source being one you used to disprove and prove your point.

          1. Curious to know how the World Professional Association for Transgender Health has so much influence on APA deliberations and if dissenting orgs had equal assess to APA deliberations.

    2. While gender dysphoria used to be classified as a mental illness, it is now widely accepted that this is not the case. It is also widely accepted among both doctors and scientists that neither biological sex (i.e. XX, XY, XO, XXY, etc.) nor biological gender (whether it is identity as addressed in this article or otherwise) is binary.

      1. I have to agree with Marshall. The Scientific Method is the process of eliminating possibilities through experiments, not designing experiments to support their hypothesis. This article has not considered many other hypothesis but cherry picked evidence to support the desired conclusion. In Neurobiology you can take any group of individuals and discover similarities in their brain composition. They’ve done this with Republicans and Democrats in the USA and many other control groups.
        While the science may be sound in this article the conclusions can be misleading. It doesn’t answer what happens if an individual shows the same neurobiological signs of a transgender individual but does not identify as such? It does not compare these neurobiological findings to those with mental illnesses mentioned above ^^ (ie schizophrenia, BDD, anorexia etc)
        Also, science has never been about consensus. The strength of a scientific claim comes from it’s infallibility and evidence supporting it and not the fact that the idea is becoming widely accepted. It’s one of the signs of someone who is trying to use science with an agenda instead of discovering truth.

        1. There are some studies (almost all human studies) for which it is not possible to design the types of empirical experiments one can do with animals. The studies presented in this article are very standard scientific studies, designed using the scientific method within ethical confines.

          Twin studies are the gold standard in determining genetic contribution in human studies. If more identical twins (who have identical genomes) than fraternal twins have something in common, then it is very likely that there is a genetic contribution. This is because it is unlikely that two identical twins are raised in more similar environments than fraternal twins. And this is exactly what was seen with the trait of being transgender!

          And science is definitively about consensus! Not consensus in the “people’s court” but consensus between scientific studies–both those that directly replicate previous studies (important to rule out researcher bias) and studies that ask similar questions from the same angle. With the genetic and brain structure evidence we have now (and is explained in this article), there is scientific consensus that gender identity has biological underpinnings.

          Since I haven’t seen any evidence from you or Marshall countering any of the claims in this article, it’s difficult to judge the scientific support of your arguments. If we are biased in our reporting, that suggests there must be a wealth of scientific literature against what we’re saying. Where is that?

          1. Yes but that consensus needs to be 100% our close to in order to hold any weight. However even with consensus, evidence behind that consensus still is the strength behind the scientific claim. It was scientists like Galileo, and Newton who did not accept general consensus of their time and decided to not accept anything they couldn’t replicate and they argued that any claim can and must be challenged, even if the claim was held to be true by general consensus.

            On the note of my own personal evidence, I am not the one making a scientific claim. This paper is the one that makes a scientific claim and attempting to use evidence to support the claim. My claim is that the evidence isn’t complete. Incomplete evidence provides incomplete conclusions.

            Maybe you don’t understand the scientific method but the scientific method is making a hypothesis, and then designing multiple experiments that would disapprove that hypothesis. If all of those experiments fail to disprove the hypothesis, then logically it can be concluded that the hypothesis is correct. If you fail to perform and/or demonstrate all experiments that might disprove your hypothesis then the scientific process was incomplete.
            All that this article does is show ONE experiment that supports the hypothesis and then published the conclusions. It’s a step in the right direction, however if you want to have a solid conclusion, they’re are still some holes that need to be filled. Isn’t that the whole point of peer review? To try and catch those holes before publishing?
            Again great, insightful article but it is incomplete and does not answer all questions related to transgenderism. In fact it raises more questions than it answers and that in it of itself tells me it is an incomplete study with an incomplete conclusion.

          2. This article is not a study. It is a summary of peer-reviewed, scientific-method-using literature on this topic. The author is not trying to make or test a hypothesis. She is just summarizing available studies. It’s actually very difficult to be comprehensive in this kind of article, but we do strive to represent the field accurately. And in fact, she also comes to the conclusion you did that we do not understand this topic 100% : “At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological.”

            When I asked you for evidence, I was responding to the part of your comment that said you agreed with Marshall. Marshall said claimed that there was evidence that explained transgenderism as a mental illness. That’s a hypothesis, right? Doesn’t someone who makes that claim have the same responsibility to present evidence for or against it? But perhaps that’s not the part of Marshall’s comment you agreed with–sorry for making assumptions.

            This article talks about multiple experiments (she cites at least 8 studies), btw. The point of peer review is to catch holes in a single study, not holes in an entire field of research. Gender is much too complicated to be understood in a single study. The studies here asked and answered specific questions (e.g. does transgenderism happen in two identical twins more than it happens in two fraternal twins? is a specific brain region of transgender men more similar to cisgender men or cisgender women?). And these studies, according to their peer-reviewers, were able to reliably answer these questions. No one is trying to explain all of the reasons contributing to gender identity in a single study. Every field has more work to do to understand ourselves and our world more completely. As scientists, we are glad that there are always more questions to answer, for this is what keeps us employed!

          3. I understand. I believe the claim he was making referred to the high suicide rates that are comparable to those with Gender-dysphoria. In fact, the suicide rates for transgender individuals are higher than veterans (PTSD) (22%), depression (2-15%), bi-polar disorder (3-20%), and schizophrenia (6-15%). The 41% figure of transgender suicides is higher than all of those and suggests that this remains a mental condition. Studies have even determined that gender re-assignment surgery does not help with the suicide rates. The easy answer is to explain this away by saying the high suicide rate is due to high exposure to bullying. Yet even among other groups that experience intense bullying still come no where close to the same amount of suicide rates. I myself have spent two years in a situation where I was constantly rejected, spit on, robbed and even threatened at gun point. Not that I’m comparing what I went through to what a transgender individual goes through, but the stats seem to show there’s something more than bullying and social nonacceptance that accounts for such a high suicide rate. I believe that is what Marshall is referring to in the above comment and is a major flaw in the above article. If you want to prove that gender-dysphoria is not a mental condition then you have to explain why there’s so much more likelihood of suicide than virtually every other “bullied” group yet is comparable to the suicide rates with those of mental conditions.

            Also it would be important to take into account individuals who have gone through what some would call a transgender lifestyle and lived to regret it. Understanding what helped them to not commit suicide and to come at peace with themselves. Many children who believe they are a different sex tend to grow out of it as their brain and body develops. So why should we encourage a behavior that is potentially self destructive? You would encourage a bulimic individual to continue throwing up would you? Also you wouldn’t try and convince them that their condition is natural and since they were born this way there’s nothing wrong with them. I would hope you would try and get them the best help possible. In fact similar neuroscience studies have found brain developmental causes for depression. Does that mean we encourage individuals with depression because it is natural? No we help them cope with it in spite of how their body naturally developed. I see no difference in with transgenderism especially because there is no indication in studies that transgender individuals would stop killing themselves if the world just stopped bullying them.

            http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_suicide.php
            https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/Suicide_Prevention_FactSheet_New_VA_Stats_070616_1400.pdf

          4. First, high suicide rates in a group =/= that group has a mental illness. White men, as a group, also have higher suicide rates than the general population. Does that mean that identifying as a white man is a sign of mental illness? (of course not) https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

            Second, the 41% number you cite is the suicide attempt rate from a survey people who are transgender (and thus did not die by suicide), whereas the other numbers you cite are suicide rates (of people who died by suicide), so it’s not really a fair comparison.

            Third, can you cite the studies that show transgender people have higher suicide rates that is not due to bullying?

            And fourth, from the APA: “having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder.” http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/11/psychology-transgender.aspx

          5. Has there been a consensus of studies showing that as far as scientifically testing for sex via genes/chromosomes that there is a “transgender gene”?

            Yes or no?

            The answer to that question shows how you are using some studies to make your personal points and ignoring numerous others that prove you wrong and by doing so are doing just what you complain about in regards to the “people’s court”.

            Figures lie and liars figure. Hiding behind the studies you choose to cherry pick while ignoring many others that YOU KNOW exist and that say something completely different with real consensus than your make believe consensus presented in this hack job article is no better than propaganda. There are many elements of truth presented, but when you can not even address a simple question on a transgender gene without mocking people and talking in circles when the answer is nothing but CONSENSUS? Please, save us your self serving condescension. You lose all credibility at that point.

          6. From the article: “At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological.”

            If you have studies to disprove this (i.e. show that transgenderism is not at all biological or genetic), please share, as I am not aware of them.

            Here’s as simple as an answer to your question as I can give: There’s not a single transgender gene, but transgenderism has been shown by a consensus of twin studies to have genetic influence. Similarly, there’s not a single gene for heart disease or height, but we know these things are influenced by genetics.

            I’m not trying to mock anyone, and I’m sorry to Clyde if he took it that way.

          7. We have no intention of cherry-picking. Please let us know what other information you think should be included here so as not to give that impression.

        2. Glancing over the “sex change regret” page, it’s worth noting a few things.
          – In the cited Guardian article, there isn’t actually as strong a stance as the author of the sex change regret website would like us to believe. The Guardian article mentions that many therapists interviewed believe that the vast majority of their clients who have undergone sexual reassignment surgery are happy with the change. The consensus from the article (from both sides of the argument) is actually that more research needs to be done, because so many follow-up studies have sampled the population poorly. Furthermore, even if we take the statistics at face value (suicide rates of 3-18%, 1/5 of patients regretting sex changes), these statistics are remarkably lower than the one you quoted before – a 41% attempted suicide rate.
          – The Swedish cohort study cited is written by authors who believe that their results “inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.” An immense flaw of the sexual reassignment process is poor patient care. Such a dramatic change inevitably produces psychological trauma. If you have a good health care provider, they will likely offer counseling after a skin transplant following severe burns that might alter your physical appearance (for instance). Furthermore, this cohort study was comparing individuals who had undergone sexual reassignment to the general population. Perhaps a better comparison would be to transgender individuals who had not undergone reassingnment to see if suicide rates had gone down – which would ACTUALLY comment on the effectiveness of sex reassignment. Finally, the difference in mortality rate was only statistically significant for people who had surgery before 1989; for those who had their surgery between 1989 and 2003, the increased mortality for transgender individuals wasn’t statistically significant.

          Finally, a much more recent study has actually addressed some of your concerns. It shows that while suicide attempt rates are indeed higher among transgender individuals, these rates drop dramatically if psychological and social factors (bullying, marginalization, etc.) aren’t as big an issue – http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2
          If their parents supported them, rates dropped. If the individuals themselves did not have negative views surrounding transgenderism, rates dropped.

          1. The 40% suicide rate is from a poorly controlled internet study where the researchers admit 20% is a far more likely figure. This was for attempted suicide not actual.

            You rightly point out there is no measure of comparison between trans people who do and don’t transition which would be necessary to determine the success of the treatment.

            I am generally suspicious of the regret rate as so many are lost to follow up. Having had two friends transition fully and partially and regret it i am aware neither cases were captured as regret. In the full case the mtf continued to live as a woman as having divested herself of her genitalia she thought this the better option along with the ability to use the protected trans characteristic in law to her advantage in applying for jobs and housing etc. However she was fully aware that the procedure was a mistake and she realised she was a cross dresser who had a mental breakdown and became convinced that she was trans and transition the answer to her problems.

            The case of my friend who partially transitioned was similar. He came to realise he was a cross dresser whose therapist had persuaded him was a sign he was actually trans gender. He know considers that this was delusional thinking encouraged by a mental health professional when he was suffering depression.

            As the other two trans people i know who are happy with their transitional so have serious mental health issues i am inclined to think from this case study of 4 that whilst for some genetics may be at play that there is a large scope for other aetiologies. In fact it seems negligent to ignore this as allowing vulnerable people to modify their bodies so drastically in ways they may later regret even if not officially is unethical.

            The biological basis this article promotes acts to encourage a lack of gatekeeping for treatment which i see as very important to ensure only those who would really benefit are permitted to be treated.

    3. Gender is not binary.

      Sex is binary — on a genetic/biological level. That said, you really should read up on intersex and how that works — on a genetic level. Gender, on the other hand, is socio-cultural. Your reading in this field might start with Anne Fausto-Sterling “Sexing the Body” and then move into Judith Butler “Gender Trouble” etc. etc. Bibliographies on both these works are a good resource for bringing yourself up to speed in the gender studies field.

      Let me further note here that homosexuality used to be viewed by the APA and the DSM as pathological. DSM5, just recently revised, changes the terminology in gender ID from “disorder” to “dysphoria” . . . Transgender is not viewed as a pathology. It’s classed as a mood disorder in the anxiety/depression realm.

      Dysphoria — sharing the Latin root w/ “eu-phoria” is fundamentally a mood. Moods do not necessarily correlate to some sort of neuro-pathological state (e.g. like schizophrenia, psychosis).

      Gender presentation by and large is a socio-cultural function. Essentially presentation is a sort of linguistic process whereby we communicate gender through cultural “semes” — signifying cues that mark gender (e.g. skirts, beards).

      Gender-mapping, that process that goes on in our heads and tells us ontologically and existentially who we are, that process as this article explains is determined by “nurture” in the womb. There are two windows in natal development for sex differentiation: First exposure to testosterone in the womb determines physiological development, penis/testes. Second window of natal exposure determines the epistemological “gender mapping” in the natal brain which codes sexual identity. Lacunae of sufficient testosterone, or inhibition to the effects of testosterone may result in a human who is physiologically “male” but nonetheless epistemologically “female” or some other variation along the infinite continuum of the sex dyad.

      Anecdotally — I’ve been “trans whatever” since I was about four years old and able to distinguish that there are gender distinctions. It’s taken me nearly 70 yrs to come to terms with who I am and what I feel. As an academic in gender theory, I’ve been inclined to attribute “gender” to a socio-cultural, male hegemonic, hetero-normative dyadic oppression. It’s altogether existentially affirming to know that how I feel and who I am has fundamental biological underpinnings.

      It’s not just all in my head.

      1. The DSM was changed not by scientific pressure but by political pressure. This is no different than the EPA changing its criteria based on Exxon lobbying.

    4. I would dearly love you to cite the evidence that gender dysphoria responds to psychopharmacological treatment or talking therapies (as the disorders you mentioned do). There’s a reason that transition is stated as the treatment for gender dysphoria by medical authorities, despite the fact that it’s a pretty extreme and expensive thing to do.

      You’re conflating dysmorphobia with dysphoria. Trans people have a perfectly good idea as to what their bodies look like. There is no fussing over any minor or imagined defect. Trans people don’t feel that they have a defective body, they feel that their body sex is misaligned with their felt gender. Treatment (i.e. transition) in the vast majority of cases makes them feel better, is associated with staggeringly low long term regret rates (1-2% post op, 5% long term hormone therapy) and reduces suicide rates to closer to that of the gen pop.

      Conversely, psychotherapeutic interventions for anorexia *are* helpful whilst helping someone with anorexia to achieve their body image goals would be assisted suicide.

      Please reply with citations and not “sounds a bit like..” arguments.

    5. Transgenderism is not at all like anorexia or other body dysmorphic illnesses because transgender patients were treated in the same exact way medically and psychologically as people with BIID, anorexia, etc and did not respond to the therapies or medication in anyway. However, people with anorexia, BIID, etc did and do respond to those therapies and medications. You should look into the history of how transgender people were treated by the medical community because they treated exactly like people suffering from body dysmorphic illnesses. If

      transgenderism were a body dysmorphic illness like anorexia or BIID, etc, then we should have seen it respond to the treatments for it in some way, and transgenderism did not. However, transgenderism did and does respond very well to the way that it is treated today, which is first to help the person come to terms with their transgender status, and then from there to help the person decide what the next course of action should be from transitioning socially, medically, or do nothing. As for the comorbidity rate much of that is due to the very negative way in which transgender people are treated, and perceived by society. As the current treatment and standards of care for

      transgender people today are very effective at managing gender dysphoria if the transgender patient is experiencing any to alleviating it completely. As a trans person myself I grew up suffering with gender dysphoria starting around the age of 6 when I realized that I couldn’t live and be perceived as the gender and sex that I had always known myself to be from my earliest memories. However, after talking with a gender therapist, socially transitioning, and especially after being on cross sex hormone replacement therapy for a few months my gender dysphoria completely went away. The only time I feel gender dysphoric now is when I want to be intimate with my partner because I have not been able to have gender confirmation surgery yet, and so I still do experience gender dysphoria, but it’s only related to my genitals and only during certain situations. Again if transgenderism were cognitive disorder like BDD, anorexia, BIID, etc then is should have responded to the treatments used to help people with those disorders, and they had no effect at all. And certain not for lack of

      trying. The reason I believe for this is simple and that is that transgenderism in and of itself is not a mental disorder or illness. It’s another form of intersexuality that only affects the brain unlike other forms of intersexuality that affect the brain, reproductive organs, and or sex chromosomes. Down below is an excerpt from a paper that Dr.Milton Diamond wrote in 2011 as well as a link to the entire paper. If you don’t know who Dr.Milton Diamond is please google him as he has contributed probably more than anyone else to our understanding of gender, transgenderism, and interseuxality. He has been studying and publishing papers on every gender related since 1950, and is also one of the people who did a study with fraternal and identical twins looking to see if there is a genetic component to transgenderism. He located a set of identical twins who were adopted away at birth, and who were raised in different countries, spoke different languages, and both transitioned at around the same time, and both talked about experiencing their transgenderism similarly. In fact, down below is a link to a youtube video with him discussing the results. He’s also the person who brought to light the truth about the John\Joan experiment aka David Reimer story in 1997 as well.

      “Actually from my own clinical experiences, my own experimental research, and from the findings of others I conclude that transsexuality is a form of intersexuality…. I believe that transsexuals are intersexed in their brains as others are or might be more obviously so in their gonads, genitals, hormonal character, receptors, enzymatic or chromosomal constitution. And it is this brain intersexuality that biases the person to assert his or her gender identity.”

      http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2011-ethical-considerations.html

      1. As a retired RN, having researched this thoroughly, I stand with you Kristin. The AMA has confirmed this is biologic condition – with time, medical dr’s are slow – it will become biologic normal condition. They do basically consider it normal to have gender fluidity. As mentioned, at least 6 genes have been identified for gender ID. As mentioned, indigenous peoples identified and were comfortable with this, until the arrival of missionaries, who punished if not complied with male or female period. Due to their choice of beliefs.
        Society is changing thank goodness, one is either for humane treatment of humans, or not. BTW I consider “liberal” irrelevant, as I believe the above sentence. Stay strong!

    6. Agreed. It’s a little weird how suddenly there’s all these young people searching for their gender and looking for microaggressions at every turn. I feel sorry for Transgendered men and women who aren’t trying to force their identities on the public through legislation. I’m especially concerned about CA Bill SB179, which will allow ONE parent to declare their child is a different gender from their biological sex on govt forms. I remember I went through a Tomboy stage for a while and wanted everyone to call me Bobby but I grew out of it. Legislating these fake ‘phobias’ sounds like a great excuse to enact hate speech laws, that if passed, will make it a crime to criticize articles like this. This is when Anti-bullying campaigns become another form of bullying people who don’t agree with you into ‘acceptance’. The fact that the governments in Europe, Canada, and California are trying to legislate these fake ‘phobias’ so they can give special privileges to members of these disenfranchised groups is frightening. Transphobia, Islamophobia, Shmobia!

      1. lol, I don’t think you understand what most of those words mean

        all these young people searching for their gender and looking for microaggressions at every turn are to tomorrow, what the bra-burners of the 70’s were to the female CEOs of today

        you do not have a right to legislate control over what other people do with their bodies. period. there is FAR MORE in the way of ethical grounds for pro-life legislation than there is for anti-trans legislation, and I am not only pro-choice but PRO-ABORTION. we are not attempting to force our identities on the public through legislation. we are attempting to end violence against us through legislation. alternatively, we are being explicitly attacked and denied the right to exist in public space through legislation, which in turn ratifies violence against us. #Texas

        are you aware that single parents exist? I’m confused

        I know, it’s almost like if California makes it really easy to change one’s gender on government forms, people will be able to do it MORE than ONCE and maybe even get the idea that it’s OK to change one’s mind about things on the regular! the horror!

        the only fake “phobias” being legislated are the ones wherein exposure to human bodies and sexuality will somehow psychologically scar Teh Children. HB2 in North Carolina was passed not long after I came out last year, and I was told by a man in a Facebook thread, as a broad, sweeping declaration, that he was coming for us all with a can of gasoline. Teh Children never seem to come under consideration when we are discussing the suicide rates of queer youth, or the fact that some queer people, such as myself, have actual real live children of our own. if you are really more concerned about being persecuted for “criticism” than you are about the daily, constant, unending harassment of a political minority, you might literally be a Nazi.

        you sound like the sort of person who likes to quote exactly two statements ever made by the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, and ignore all the rest

        the fact that the governments in Europe, Canada, and California… y’know, I can’t even. that is such a word salad.

        ok. deep breath. I’m’a go with this. what, exactly, is the purpose of these campaigns? you seem to think there’s something else going on. what are the agendas in play? what is the endgame? enlighten me.

        while you’re at it, I’d love to hear your definitions of “privilege” and “disenfranchised.” you do realize those concepts are like, exact polar opposites, right? they cancel each other out? no?

        I agree, it’s frightening.

        privilege (noun)
        “if it doesn’t affect me then obviously it’s not a real problem”

        I have no desire to engage with a bunch of people with armchair psych degrees all screaming about IT’S A MENTAL ILLNESS like climate-change deniers, but this free-speech concern trolling was too delicious to pass up

      2. I must respectfully disagree with your words, which “seem” to state that children or young people are “searching” for their gender, & “finding micro aggressions”. It is so backward, I might laugh, but it is a serious matter when society thinks as you do. Here is a definition of “privilege” which white “straight” sometimes “religious” society enjoys currently: Some academics highlight a pattern where those who benefit from a type of privilege are unwilling to acknowledge it. American sociologist Michael S. Kimmel describes the state of having privilege as being “like running with the wind at your back”, unaware of invisible sustenance, support and propulsion.[2] The argument may follow that such a denial constitutes a further injustice against those who do not benefit from the same form of privilege. One writer has referred to such denial as a form of “microaggression” or microinvalidation that negates the experiences of people who don’t have privilege and minimizes the impediments they face. Those who need “special rights” only “need” them due to the ignorance or belief in opinion as fact, due to their un-self aware “privilege”. These special rights protect the marginalized from the many micro and macro aggressions taken on them, in daily life. People do not “search” for their gender identity. It is inherent in their brain gender ID structure, recently scientifically/medically discovered. The reproductive organs form during the first 5-12 weeks of pregnancy. As with any early pregnancy time, all organs are fragile to outside events, genetics triggered, receptors working or not, hormones. My mother was exposed to DDT, and it did cause a defect for me. So, am I “searching” for my gender ID? NO. In the last half of pregnancy, the brain forms the gender ID structure, larger in males/transmales and smaller in females/transfemales. Legislation is necessary for all marginalized, due to the current wave of outright acted upon hatred toward those not privileged to be born white. Or straight. It is BIOLOGICAL, not theological.
        You are correct about “fake phobias”. These are actually “bigotry” and “hate”. About something that does not impact others lives with harm. The marginalized have fear every day. In the USA, our Constitution demands equality for all. Wonder why this is not true? (not really).
        You are being dramatic about not being able to criticize an article. Free speech is in our Constitution also. One’s choice of religious lifestyle is not allowed to impact other’s lives in our Constitution either.
        IF you are still reading, I would suggest using the Google to research privilege, the lives daily of marginalized persons (non-white, non-binary), medical research- use .edu, .org, not .com. I do wish you well on a journey of eye opening, and hopefully more empathy and compassion for all the humans who live on this earth.
        BTW, “transgendered” is incorrect grammar. I am not “straighted” nor “gayed”.
        Thanks, hope you can have success; usually humility is earned via suffering. I will pray you learn humility.

        McIntosh wro

    7. It is proven science that the X and Y chromosomes are not the determinant of sex assignment. To believe they are is to make yourself into a relic of the past. Please find where your source of curiosity went as it’s loss has limited your thought process. Any time I’ve uncovered something that runs contrary to a long held belief, I investigate that opposing idea as I know that I’ve been subject to believing outdated facts, myths, false data and good old fashioned wives’ tales.

    8. This is very interesting to read as a trans girl myself. out of curiousity it says twins environments affect them. iss this trying to say you are more likey to be trans based on where you live? im a identical twin me and my brother biologicaly male however ive never meet him until 4 months ago he lived with my dad and i lived with my mom. he is cisgender though.

      1. Twin studies are a common way to determine how much a trait is caused by your genetics or the environment. Environmental causes can include many things–something you’re exposed to in the womb, how you’re treated by your parents, an injury you had in childhood. In the case of being transgender, you could imagine that this trait might be caused by something you’re exposed to in your life (e.g. higher levels of hormones in your water as a child) OR it could be caused by a gene you have that creates a divergence between your biological sex and your gender identity. Identical twins have the same genes, so if gender identity were entirely due to genetics, you would expect that two identical twins would always have the same gender identity. However, identical twins often (though perhaps less so in your case) have very similar environments, too (siblings are often exposed to the same water growing up), so these studies use fraternal twins (who have different genetics, but similar environments) as a control. If there are genetic causes, you’d expect more identical twins to share a gender identity than fraternal twins (since identical twins have more similar genetics). If the causes are entirely environmental, you’d expect that fraternal and identical twins would be similar in the proportion of twins who share a gender identity. In the case of gender identity, more identical twins share gender identity than fraternal twins, meaning that there are some genetic causes. However, 100% of identical twins don’t share gender identity, meaning that there are also environmental factors at play. So since you and your brother are identical twins, it suggests that differences in your environments played a role in the differences in your gender identity. I hope that answers your question!

    9. Marshall, you represent the multitude of ignorant people that harbor anger toward anyone that is different from them. You discount science because you are threatened by a group of persons that are not doing anything personally to you. Why don’t you figure out what thoughts and desires you are repressing that cause you to be so angry?

      1. “Marshall, you represent the multitude of ignorant people that harbor anger toward anyone that is different from them. ”

        In reality, what’s going on is that trans people are claiming they are not different yet the biological facts say yes they are very different than the biological sex that matches their gender identity.

        This article is filled with pro-trans propaganda and I’ll be sure to come back very soon to explain this in great detail, using credible, unbiased links as well as peer-reviewed citations.

    10. Well said!
      Human beings are sexually dimorphic, end of discussion. The author fails epicly to disprove this, instead touts out the vague assertion that science tells us that gender, mind you gender is a social not biological construct, is not binary.

      This assertion takes the discussion from a hard science such as biology or chemistry to the soft science of sociology, in other words an educated guess. So effectively the author is arguing, poorly, that there might be some some scientific evidence to support a basis for this deviant behavior. Keep in mind I am using the sociological definintion of deviant, which is defined and any behavior that is contrary to the dominant norms of a society.

      That pretty much ends the discussion right there. The bill was written to address sex, not gender, doesn’t matter how you feel about it, there are only two sexes. Saying something has strong support in the social sciences is like finding someone in a mental institution that claims God told me to do it. Saying something is peer reviewed in a hard science carries far more weight than one from a soft science. I do not see an overwhelming amount of evidence here to support most of the assertions made in this paper, plain and simple. Whining about the limited amount of funding available for research puts the final two nails in the coffin, first it is not an accepted cultural norm worthy of further study, second as noted perhaps spend less time on pseudo science and more effort to design and test a valid hypothesis as it might yeild more funding.

      1. first off 1 can argue bilogicly that there are 4 hermaphrodite and its opposite counter part idk the name of

        but gender identity is always and will always be way more importaint and meaningful then your sex

        but i cant help to ask wtf bill are you talking about this was a scientific thing on gender identity not about any bill
        reguardless its importaint that gender identity is respective above biology cause that represents your true self

        if your talking about those bathroom bills in texas and north carolina all those do are hurt ppl they help noone

        1. “but gender identity is always and will always be way more importaint and meaningful then your sex”

          Please come on back to earth. Most people still do not understand that gender and biological sex, are not the same things. Most people speak of gender when what they technically mean is biological sex. Even when a doctor states that a newborn’s gender is male or female, technically what he is referring to is biological sex.

          I understand exactly why trans people such as yourself would like for the world to focus on gender rather than biological sex. The reality is that we don’t and we never will when it comes to dating/sex/relationships/sexual attraction and desires.

          Many trans women are beaten and or killed each year because they made the foolish assumption that the straight guy they were out on a date with, cared more about gender than biological sex. Gender is of the mind. A sense of self. It is who you are. Biological sex is what you are (male or female). No matter how the LGBTQ community tries to spin, lie and blast the web with BS; biological sex is what it is. Human beings have sexual attraction/sexuality. Sex. Not gender!

          1. just cause ppl dont yet know the dif and such does not make it any less importaint
            gender identity is more importaint then biology and we fight every day to stop this nonsence that biology has anything to do with who you are
            and we have came a long way and we will keep fighting for civil rights
            and were winning this fight even if in areas it doesnt look like it but this is exactly how any other civil rights movements went
            theres no place in this world to treat a transgirl any different then any other girl

          2. Kirstin, you’re replying to my comment yet you speak as if you didn’t comprehend my points.

            Again, the thing that matters the most, IS biological sex. Gender does not determine who can and can not give birth. Gender is not what we as human beings are sexually attracted to. You want the world to care more about gender because your biological sex is not what you want it to be.

            Sorry but a trans woman is not the same as a biological woman. That is why one is called trans and the other is not. That may be a very hurtful fact within your mind and heart but is the truth. I’m not willing to live within dishonesty in order to make you feel better about yourself.

          3. you are incorrect in your asumptions on attraction attraction is a personal thing and there are alot of ppl who are not attracted to ppl based on genitalia
            your statement is false in many ways genitalia does not define you gender identity is who you are biology is nothing more then apearence there are trans girls youd never know are trans so yes a transgirl can be just as much a girl as any cis girl

            and fyi translesbians mostly only date other lesbians or bisexuals straight girls dont date trans lesbians because there not interested in girls
            so idk whos ass you pulled that out of but biology DOES NOT define you and it never will

          4. You’re more than welcome to your opinion no matter how much they do NOT represent reality for the majority of humanity. Again, just because you claim something, does not make it factual. Reality does not exist according to your desires. If it did, then you would not be trans, you would be a biological woman.

            Tell me, what is is exactly, that makes a person gay? What is the definition of being homoSEXUAL? Notice the word sexual, not gender?!

            Most people are attracted to people of the opposite biological sex as them. That is how nature designed us for the very specific purpose of reproduction in order to keep the human race thriving.

            Tinder is a very popular dating app. They had to add a transgender option because users kept getting angry that they were not informed that some of their matches were trans. After finding out, users would flag the trans users:
            http://www.businessinsider.com/transgender-tinder-users-reported-and-banned-2015-6

            https://mic.com/articles/120123/transgender-tinder-users-are-getting-banned-allegedly-because-of-their-gender-identities#.diXIh6ri9

            Many trans women are attacked and or killed each year, after a straight male they date, finds out that they are trans. Harming a trans person or any person is always wrong but the reason that leads them to such anger is yet another indication as to how strongly many people feel about gender vs biological sex.

            “there are trans girls youd never know are trans so yes a transgirl can be just as much a girl as any cis girl”

            Being a biological woman is about far more than what they look like. Trans people are so focused on “passing” as much as they can, that you actually think that is all it takes to be a woman. Less than 1/3 of trans people undergo SRS. That means that MOST trans women have a penis. You may try to minimize that reality in your mind but the fact remains that MOST straight guys have NO interest in dating/having sex with another penis. The fact that you can’t seem to understand that, says a whole lot in a very bad way.

            Most trans women do not pass very well. A fact that I’m sure you’ll deny. Most trans people do not begin HRT before puberty though HRT would be most effective if it began before puberty begins its natural course on the body.

            As a trans woman, you can not give birth. That is yet another important factor to not all but most men. Again, having a penis is a deal breaker to most straight men. You can deny it all you want but you can’t prove that it’s incorrect. I’m a male. I know many males, all of whom feel the same as I do.

            I live in Malibu CA (Los Angeles County). We have a large LGBTQ population here. I’ve even been hit on by 2 trans women in the past. One of them “passed” well but the voice was def trans. The other one looked trans, a mile away. Regardless, I had zero interest in either one of them because I’m only interested in biological women. When the time is right, I will get married and have children with a biological woman.

            “so idk whos ass you pulled that out of but biology DOES NOT define you and it never will”

            You’re really not paying attention, are you?! Again, biological sex is what you are as in your physical body. Gender is who you are as in your sense of self within your mind. Do you really not understand the difference?

            A biological male can have a great personality. He can be within his mind, everything that I like. But I would never even consider wanting to date him. Why? Because I’m not gay. I’m not attracted to people who are the same biological sex as me. You can focus on gender all you want, but you can NOT force anyone else to do the same. That will never happen.

            See yourself as whatever you want. That is your business and your right. What is not your right is to try and tell other people what should be most important to them and how they should feel about you and your transgender reality.

  4. You say “Several studies have shown that identical twins are more often both transgender than fraternal twins, indicating that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity.” A statement like that demonstrates just how little you understand about science and scientific studies, truth and lies and is why any reader should question everything you write.

    Anyone who exercises reason can discern that just because “several studies” (with no further qualification than the word study) have shown that it does in no way “INDICATE that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity.” This is frankly a lie, not a reasoned conclusion. To make such a conclusion from the few words you have offered is an intended deception which cast a doubt on the veracity of everything you say.

    1. The sentence you quote links to one of the studies (which is actually a meta-study that contains a nice list of all the studies it examined). We could probably write a whole article just about twin studies, but here we were trying to cover more ground. I’m sorry that you found it confusing, but the author was making a conclusion from the cited study (not just a “few words”).

      Twin studies are actually an extremely common way to determine the relative contribution of genetic and environmental factors. If you’re interested, you can read more about it here: http://msutwinstudies.com/why-twin-studies/

  5. Great. Harvard has jumped on the lunacy bandwagon now? This is just fake science and biased garbage. Enough people. What happened to reason?? Everyone rejects facts now. You have all lost your minds. It is a mental disorder, end of.

    1. Great. Harvard has jumped on its usual scientific facts now. This is just well researched science and blessed (oops misread lol) truth. Good to know 10 yrs and more of scientific research has happened, and this is accepted by reason of medical/scientific researchers/physicians instead of churches. Only fundamentalists reject facts now. I am glad majority of all humans do not reject hard scientific work now. It is biological and genetic, end of.

    2. I happen to believe there’s some physical evidence for Transexuality but it’s certainly not cast in stone. The idea that gender is fluid because Judith Butler and articles like this say so, is ridiculous.

      1. That’s funny, I find the idea of “adding” dinosaurs to the biblical story ridiculous!
        Humans are all so different, aren’t they? I read lots of different articles. Isn’t that silly? lololol

  6. A most informative piece. I found it very helpful. I found my dysphoria completely vanished once my body matched that of my mind. My. My arms, my legs, my body, my mind… I have become My self. Science – this science has helped me to make sense of why I am . Thanks.

  7. I liked the article, and chased up a couple of references, but was disappointed by what I found. In the paragraph on estrogen receptor sensitivity, you cite two articles. The first links to an an article which discusses genetic polymorphism in ERb, not direct measurement of sensitivity (I can’t read the full paper, because it is not Open Access and we don’t have a subscription to that journal, but there is nothing in the abstract about receptor study per se, just genetic linkages) while the second links to an article that states explicitly “molecular findings presented no evidence of an association between the sex hormone-related genes (ERβ, AR, and CYP19A1) and MtF transsexualism.”, which seem to me to contradict your assertion that there is evidence to support the hypothesis. Do you have any more solid data on this?

    1. Hi! Thanks so much – you actually caught a mistake! We meant to cite another article by Fernandez et al., also published in 2014, looking at transsexuals. These two papers actually came out the same year and covered a similar topic, hence the error, which has now been corrected.

      However, I don’t want to obfuscate or hide the data that’s out there! So, I want to make sure I address your comments.

      For MtF…
      – In MtF, androgen receptors appear to be longer (and thus less sensitive). See http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp-prod1.hul.harvard.edu/science/article/pii/S0006322308010871#bib19 and https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article-abstract/4/4/523/560387/Evidence-for-a-repressive-function-of-the-long?redirectedFrom=PDF
      http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp-prod1.hul.harvard.edu/science/article/pii/S0306453005000454 – this article, as you state, discusses genetic associations. However, that’s pretty much the extent of what we can do in humans. We can’t do a lot to manipulate estrogen levels in vitro. Still, studying ERbeta in mice, we do know that polymorphisms can have drastic effects on nervous system develop. As you can see, this can go both ways – having a poor estrogen receptor or one that’s too long can result in poor feminization in FtMs (Fernandez et al in the corrected text). With MtF, the polymorphism is different, and thus has different repercussions.

      Another interesting piece of evidence with FtM – http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(07)01228-9/fulltext – this study looks at a CYP17 variant. CYP17 is involved in hormone metabolism, and thus may be affecting estrogen production. This study supports the idea that FtM may not have sufficient estrogen production (and thus are not sufficiently feminized).

      I also want to address the other Fernandez et al. 2014 paper that was incorrectly cited. This paper wasn’t fully investigated because it isn’t in a journal available to Harvard students, and thus it wasn’t (intended to be) included in this article, and thus I can’t fully evaluate its methods. However, the androgen receptor paper cited above was fully vetted by us and met our standards. Briefly comparing what is available between the papers, the Hare et al. paper drew from a more ethnically diverse population and had strong statistics backing it up. Still, it is absolutely worth acknowledging that we don’t have a strong consensus on mechanism yet, and we will hopefully cover more of the science behind it in the future. There is, however, medical and scientific consensus that transgender identity is NOT a mental illness: the DSM-V does not list it as a mental illness, and the vast majority of certified health professionals agree that is not a type of dysphoria.

  8. Part of my difficulty with this field is understanding what is meant by having a sense of gender.
    What does it feel like to be male / female? I have emotions, feelings, & preferences etc, but I’m not aware of those being indicative of masculinity or femininity.
    I could compare them to stereotypes, but perhaps people are talking of a different, extra thing: genderception. Is that a thing?
    I’d be very grateful for insights.

    1. Damian, I’m of the same mind. I want to know–what does it feel like to be male or female? While transgender people seem very sure of being of a gender other than their biological sex, I, as someone who does not identify as transgender, would not know what makes me a woman other than my body, the only body I have ever had (form follows function?). Growing up I didn’t identify with any stereotypical groups. I didn’t feel like I was “one of them.” But that doesn’t mean I thought I was misgendered. It means that I didn’t buy the social construct that was presented to and apparently imposed on me. I was just me. Later on, of course, as an adult woman I felt the impact of that social construct on me, whether I liked it or not. Culturally, I am a woman because I am seen as a woman. That’s the way it works. But I always understood it as a construct, something given to me already made rather than a way of being. And I think that’s how most of us experience gender, if with different degrees of awareness. So when a transwoman says she’s a woman, she must be talking about something many of us don’t know, something fixed and identifiable many of us women with a lifelong experience of being categorized as women can’t quite claim as an identity. I am in no way questioning any trans person’s identity. What I am wondering is what is like to feel like a woman or a man when these are not fixed qualities anyone can refer to. As for all the gender variants that keep adding letters and more letters, I do believe it’s getting ridiculous. We are all different. I think that’s well understood. But do we need a name for everything? Even for things we cannot describe? Life is fluid. We are all fluid, one way or another. We should respect all human beings. That’s the bottom line.

      1. “what does it feel like to be (cis) male or female?” – It feels correct. It feels like you fit your body. It feels like you know what bathroom to go into. It feels like you know what clothes look good on you. It feels like you BELONG IN YOUR SKIN. So much more than your body parts I’m sure.

        “While transgender people seem very sure of being of a gender other than their biological sex, I, as someone who does not identify as transgender, would not know what makes me a woman other than my body, the only body I have ever had (form follows function?).” – Best way I can explain it is that you know that your body makes you a woman because it fits you. A trans person knows their body doesn’t fit. Your mind, psyche, body, all match. Theirs does not.

        “Growing up I didn’t identify with any stereotypical groups. I didn’t feel like I was “one of them.” But that doesn’t mean I thought I was misgendered. It means that I didn’t buy the social construct that was presented to and apparently imposed on me. I was just me.” – I also could not fit into stereotypical groups (of women) and was frequently left out of the boy’s club. The only one that made sense to me. I was one of them (the boys), but looking from the outside. I never knew what misgendered was, I couldn’t buy the construct if I wanted because my inner masculinity did not fit the equipment I was born with. I was just me, wanting to feel complete and whole like a cisgendered person does.

        “Later on, of course, as an adult woman I felt the impact of that social construct on me, whether I liked it or not.” – As an adult, I still felt like I didn’t fit my own body, and same as before, didn’t fit the gender norms like you, either.

        “Culturally, I am a woman because I am seen as a woman. That’s the way it works.” – For someone who is cisgendered and matches their biological sex. You look in the mirror, you see a woman. Society sees a woman. You FEEL like a woman. Your body matches your soul/psyche.

        “But I always understood it as a construct, something given to me already made rather than a way of being. And I think that’s how most of us experience gender, if with different degrees of awareness.” – I completely agree. Society gives people roadmaps or blueprints to follow if we fit the gender normative life. Those are the standard roles, and are constructed (All boys like blue, all girls like pink). We all see it in our specific society, and other countries have their own versions.

        “So when a transwoman says she’s a woman, she must be talking about something many of us don’t know, something fixed and identifiable many of us women with a lifelong experience of being categorized as women can’t quite claim as an identity.” – Actually, she feels just like you do. She worries about gender norms, she hopes someone will love her and find her attractive, she wants to dance and cry and who gives a damn what colors she likes? Her body just didn’t quite match up, but it sounds like yours did.

        “I am in no way questioning any trans person’s identity.” – But you are questioning how a person feels something, when you have admitted that you are not trans. All you can do is listen to what they tell you, now.

        “What I am wondering is what is like to feel like a woman or a man when these are not fixed qualities anyone can refer to.” – Kind of like you should have been born with the right body.

        “As for all the gender variants that keep adding letters and more letters, I do believe it’s getting ridiculous. We are all different. I think that’s well understood. But do we need a name for everything? Even for things we cannot describe?” – In language, labels are useful for ease-of-reference. The long abbreviations are very tongue-in-cheek at this point. No way that we can all have labels that box everyone up. But it does help for reference, and for recognizing diversity.

        “Life is fluid. We are all fluid, one way or another. We should respect all human beings. That’s the bottom line.” – I completely agree.

  9. Science is rapidly proving the biological nature of transgender, even fluid gender. Indigenous peoples often accepted a variety of perhaps 5-6 genders, until christian missionaries arrived insisting on M or F only, or punished. As an RN, I do know genitals are formed in the first 5-12weeks of pregnancy, when one is very susceptible to outside sources such as chemicals, also hormone levels and receptors being on or off properly, and viruses. Thus there are intersex persons, who know who they are in gender. Prior to repair, a surgeon now waits until age 3-5, when the child persistently, consistently, insistently states WHO they are. There is a book out, about repair done during infancy, female; the boy knew he was a boy, and had considerable distress. This gender dysphoria is caused by non-parental support (I know of families who chose their church & threw their child out of the house, young enough to become homeless, and prey to predators). It is caused by the constant draining requirement to be unable to be out, who they are, due to job, school, any discrimination. Who could be happy living undercover due to society’s mis-information, spread by SPLC designated “christian” anti-LGBTQ hate groups? ONE hate group was behind nation wide “bathroom bills” legislation, originating the line “Do you want a MAN in the bathroom w/your LITTLE GIRL?”, “they are confused, need help”, after slandering them viciously they chose this tactic. Liberty Councel, made up of attorneys.
    Does anyone remember the gonadal changes occurring after exposure by pregnant mom to DDT? I can tell you it affected mine. The brain forms gender structure in last half of pregnancy, and is irreversible. Children do say who they are now, age 3-5, persistently, insistently, consistently. Their eyes show their change- going from sad, shaded to alive, sparkling once transition achieved. This is no choice. Why would one choose a life of taking hormone, having a surgery, having to HIDE, being discriminated in jobs, housing, bullied terribly, hated by the very religious.
    I’ve read many scientific articles, not on .com, and have read reports more detailed even than this one. Some commenters appear a bit biased against any proof. To me? This is a huge scientific paradigm shift- one’s gender is determined by one’s BRAIN! Amazing! A discovery of this sort is usually given press, celebrated. Yet, there remains too much ignorance and hate.
    You cannot imagine being in the wrong body? That is because you are in alignment with your brain. Try to write with the opposite hand if not able to write well with both. Try really hard to imagine seeing a female in place of one’s male body if identifying as male. It’s really not THAT hard. What if you woke up tomorrow with the opposite body? Would it be illusionary? Would you have dysphoria, depression, sadness?
    In Salem, they used to burn epileptics at the stake. The disabled were kept in rooms in the attic. Or institutionalized, blaming the mother. Autistic children had “refrigerator moms”. Personally I do not understand why this is so difficult to comprehend.
    Methylation is often mentioned in this anomaly. I wonder if studies have been done on parents with MTHFR? Their bodies have difficulty in methylizing and ability to make use of some vitamins, meds, etc. I would like to see that studied.
    Thank you for this article, would like to read more on genetics, as I have prior. There is genetic component to autism also. There are higher numbers of autism kids in transgender population- genetics triggered in that first 5-12 weeks of pregnancy. I would like and be open to comments by the author. Thank you.

    1. Thank you for replying. I’m not attacking the science, or individuals who suffer add a result of being transgender. My question was a genuine one.
      I do appreciate that most societies have strong concepts of how males and females should behave, what their preferences should be, the feelings they’re allowed, and so forth. These rules have a detrimental effect on everyone, especially those who don’t fit the prescribed role.
      You give a clear example of how I might understand better: you are right that I can imagine awaking to find my body is not my own. Whether it be a different race, sex, or species. That would be upsetting and confusing, at least in part due to me being used to, and having memory of, a particular physical nature. I believe I have heard some transgender people describe their condition in those terms: a mismatch between their perception and the physical reality. I think this would sometimes be a sort of body dysphoria. (Like thin anorexic people believing they are overweight).
      More commonly, though, I’ve read people’s descriptions of how their gender does not match their sex. This seems to be a different thing.
      I do have a knowledge that my body is male (i have a penis, I don’t have a vulva), I don’t have a sense that my mind is masculine, excepting that it matches more stereotypes my culture has for men than women.
      So, the body perception thing is something I can grasp.
      Societal punishment for not maintaining gender norms, I get, and do what I can to challenge such prejudices.
      Feeling a gender, I still don’t understand. I’m not denying its existence, or criticising those who do feel it, though.
      Perhaps it’s a bit like an asexual person trying to understand sexuality.

      1. It IS hard to “feel” how another feels. I wouldn’t imagine being able to state how it feels to be in the gender fluid way in my brain, because MY brain is straight female. As I said, it has been proven there is a gender ID structure in the brain. It is like white striae. In males it is larger than in females. When compared, the transman was equal in size to a male, & had also some unique properties. Same with trans women. As there have been at least 6 genes discovered for gender ID (including agender), there is much to learn about the brain. About the brain for anything really!
        Society norms make it uncomfortable to know one is male, and then have a female body. Children are now stating who they are at 3-5. Inter-sex infants used to have reparative surgery right then. Now surgeons (if knowledgeable) wait until that child insistently, persistently, consistently states their gender. Same holds true for children who state “I am a boy”- must be insistently, persistently, consistently. There are experts in this field. They are now teaching the biology of gender ID in colleges, and med schools. Society has a hard time with this. As they did back in the day with bullying ANYone with a birth difference. So I guess I’m thinking – two groups. Children get to receive care that stops puberty until proper hormones are given, and can “pass” quite easily as the gender they are. Those who are late to it, must transition, it takes generally a year. Due to society, they need to be and look as their brain dictates to be happy. I’ve seen many a picture of before/after; the eyes are so sad, dark prior, after they are alive, sparkly. So yes the gonads are separate than the brain structure informing that person “who” they are. I can’t imagine being a soldier with his/her bits blown off. (gonadal) They remain “who” they are due to the dictates of their gender ID brain structure. I would think they’d give anything to have everything look normal again. I myself have a disabled leg. I don’t expect anyone to understand how it feels to have it, to have the chronic pain, the frustration of pacing my day, having to elevate it, etc. We cannot “feel” what another is suffering. When I say what if you woke up in female body, and you are still you! Yikes!Would you accept seeing breasts? No penis? So I understand it is very hard to understand wholly, as with anything different in others. Unless one has the capability to walk in another’s shoes. And that is a whole other thing, isn’t it? Empathy maybe? No. I cannot imagine truly what it is to be W/C bound my whole life. Or being gay, I wonder how does that “feel”? Doesn’t make it untrue does it. I wish society would stop demonizing all who are not male or female straight. Their plight is tragic enough. All birth “defect” or “anomaly” are. But then to be persecuted, is unconsciounable.
        Thank you for your response. They are human beings, just as all, trying to get through life, being persecuted due to fundamentalist religion & politicians pandering to them. It is a tragedy. Obviously I know many tho I am not.They are perfectly lovely, kind, integrity filled human beings. Perhaps from suffering. Sometimes I think society gets them mixed up with the old 70’s drag queens who entertained. Couldn’t be further from the truth. Thanks for your thoughts.

      2. Damian, I appreciate your sincere question and will attempt to relay something useful from my perspective as a trans man and a feminist.

        without a doubt we have all been socialized from birth to treat people we perceive as male and people we perceive as female in different ways, and to expect different behaviors depending on how we ourselves are perceived by others. the set of expectations which are built around conceptions of “male” and “female” vary from time to time and culture to culture, but can be universally addressed as “masculinity” and “femininity.” these sets of expectations, in all their variance of expression and severity, are obviously what people are referring to when we say that gender is a social construct.

        I’m assuming it is less than controversial to assert that femininity has historically been at a disadvantage to masculinity throughout civilization in all but the most egalitarian societies — such as those of the First Nations, which we of course exhaustively cite when pushing back against eurocentric heteronormativity, with data on two-spirits. in societies with an open power disparity, gender expression is necessarily impacted by survival pressures. the contemporary mortality rate of trans women is a microcosm (we’re talking sociology now, so, y’know) of all the ways in which the modern Western world remains closer to the second scenario than the first.

        but what are “male” and “female” upon which we are building these concepts of Masculine and Feminine? the obvious answer is the shape of one’s genitalia and reproductive organs, and of course there are secondary dimorphic characteristics ​which can be generalized but are themselves highly variant (height, bone structure, muscle mass, hair growth, etc) and that’s before we even get into the existence of intersex folk. I love how anti-trans rhetoric always dismisses an already underrepresented and marginalized population because the empirical presence of exceptions in no way proves anyone’s point about exceptions being a thing. /sarcasm. but I digress.

        you say, I get all that, I get ideas about gender conformity, I grok that reproductive equipment isn’t as binary as people like to think, but what does it mean to “feel” male or female? and this is a fascinating question, with which I have been wrestling since I finally came out as a trans man a little over a year ago, after 37 years of trying to accept myself as Female. understand, I had a lot invested, politically and emotionally, in my identity as a woman, and I continue to struggle with the personal repercussions of systemic abuse of Women in our culture.

        however, regardless of the biodevelopmental or psychosocial “reasons” for my gender identity, ignoring all the cultural and political implications of male privilege and overrepresentation, I can actually define how I know I am a man fairly easily. I belong with other men.

        for all that everyone hates being labeled, everyone loves the freedom to label themselves, and that is exactly the point of self-identification, whether we are claiming status in a group defined by gender, ethnicity, or fealty to Star Trek over Star Wars. the fact of the matter is that we are primates, pure and simple, and only survive on both individual and species levels based on our ability to cohere within groups. we are social animals and very literally and demonstrably require the acceptance and attention of other humans in order to thrive, unless of course we have an antisocial personality disorder.

        and by and large, trans people may be depressed and anxious af, but we are not generally antisocial. quite the contrary, we crave acceptance by our self-identified in-group. people who were able to identify their trans expression in childhood will often refer to “the other girls” and “the other boys” as being subject to experiences ​from which the speaker felt left out, whether social (wearing dresses) or physical (sprouting facial hair at puberty). trans adults, myself among them, often report powerful somatic cravings for physical sensations and experiences​ associated with a different body, such as the ability to menstruate or penetrate a sexual partner. but in the absence of social feedback and ingroups on which to map one’s inner reality, such feelings are excruciatingly difficult to identify and describe, let alone fulfill in any meaningful way.

        I don’t stop existing when other people aren’t around (in fact I’m quite solitary) and I fought for a great deal of body acceptance as a woman and a feminist. I do not suffer from image issues, as others have noted, of believing that there is something “wrong” with my body, and in fact I find it quite strong and beautiful. but it is not mine, in a dissociative fashion I took decades to understand as, more or less, the “trapped” narrative of mainstream media. when my body causes me distress these days, it is because I do not look/smell/sound like the other members of my self-identified ingroup, and from a lizard-brain perspective this is deadly. period.

        my distress used to be rooted in a vague but pervasive sense that I didn’t belong in my ingroup, for reasons I couldn’t identify. my relationships with women have improved dramatically since I distanced myself from them consciously, after a lifetime of never feeling fully accepted by women in the way I do by men. I submit that this is not the fault of anyone, on either a cultural or individual basis (I’ve been abused by both genders equally) but rather a naturally occurring glitch in my brain, since like, there’s data to support such a conclusion. I cannot feel accepted by women as one of their own. I’m literally incapable of it, because the sex-differentiation structures​ in my brain upon which primate heirarchies are built have determined, independent of the rest of me, that I don’t belong in that ingroup.

        I lose patience with certain arguments over socialization, as though a bunch of ignant sheep herders got together several thousand years ago and invented all the conventions of gender out of whole cloth in some sort of organized effort. the fact of the matter is that certain patterns of biological typification are not difficult to identify, nor are they universal. men are more aggressive, in aggregate. women are more sensitive, in aggregate. these traits kept us alive for hundreds of thousands of years before the dawn of agriculture and its associated imposition of gender *conformity* designed to promote breeding. they are a self fulfilling prophecy in that the sensitive people consistently wind up at the mercy of the aggressive people. they are also far from deterministic and in fact I argue that medical transition for trans folk has proven conclusively that the only practical difference between the sexes is a matter of hormones.

        my understanding is that when I begin T, I can expect my inner experience to reflect the relief inherent in a biological need being fulfilled. assuming that my brain has anomalous structures associated with being Male as described in these studies, my androgen receptors will respond to hormone therapy like a dopamine drip, and a great deal of anxiety will evaporate as my lizard brain stops screaming at me after a lifetime that I don’t properly belong and my group is gonna eat me. my presentation as Male will be more readily accepted by others cuz of pheromones, and this will fall into a nice little feedback loop of affirmation. I may very well also experience heightened dysmorphia wrt certain aspects of my body, as a man who has lost his junk in an accident might. however, this is a risk I am willing to take for the opportunity to feel I fully inhabit myself, as opposed to being isolated within a mismatched reality, unable to reconcile instinct and stimuli.

        I realize this has been less than clinical but I hope it is helpful regardless

        1. I wanted to thank you for a great explanation I’d not heard before. Thank you for your well expressed honesty. It has helped “round out” my research and knowledge. As I’ve said, no one can fully feel as another. We’re all unique “primates” or humans. Those who make flippant remarks. I just cannot “feel” as they do, cannot understand the refusal to see facts or how someone else feels, I just can’t wrap my mind around. Perhaps they too have a genetic, or hormonal issue, I believe they who are un-empathetic or aggressive, ought to also be researched in much the same ways.

    2. Dave, waking up “tomorrow with the opposite body” is not a good analogy. Of course we would all freak out (including Caitlyn Jenner after transition surgeries, as she admitted). Having aversion to the body you have had since birth cannot be the same as waking up and finding out your body is gone and you have one you cannot recognize. Clearly not everyone feels good in their own skin as shown in the popularity of plastic surgery. But that has a lot to do with the society we live in. There used to be a time, not so long ago, when people learned to love what they had rather than wishing for what they didn’t have. It built resilience and character. We come in all shapes and few people are in love with their natural bodies but it is entirely possible to fully accept yourself in whatever shape you come. I’m interested in your mention of MTHFR. What “anomaly” are you associating it to?

  10. Interesting article. The dumbed down analogies were useful and very persuasive. Ms Wu does seem to be persuading the reader in a certain direction. The circling of wagons in the comments section, is revealing.

  11. Thanks for the article. I’ve been trying to find more where a lot of studies are in one place. You usually have to do a lot of digging.
    I’m a transgender female and agree with a lot of this. I knew at a very young age but was shamed into being a boy, guy, man, whatever and didn’t come out until my early 40’s.
    People continue to call it a mental illness and it gets tiring. You develop mental illness because of the depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts that it leaves you with trying to hide/deny your true self. It doesn’t go away and eats at you throughout life.
    You can put studies right in front of people about how trans female brains are more like cis female brains but they don’t care. I don’t even argue with them anymore. Smh

  12. I know I have commented – but I forgot to thank you for this compilation of many years of research. It is a scientific paradigm shift in understanding one’s gender is not attached to one’s reproductive organs. To me, as scientific RN, it is amazing knowledge!!! I feel awe at the human body’s many mysteries still not known. To know there is a gender ID structure in the brain- society indeed will have a hard time accepting this. I then go back to why does society understand that a male/female harmed by being a soldier in a bombing, losing their reproductive organs, remain organized in the brain as same as prior? For if organs determined gender, they should be confused as to whom they are. I will utilize your article in a group. If you have a site that can explain in laymen’s terms, I would appreciate a link. Thank you again for publishing this.

    1. Brain mapping works by in a sense “growing” into your body. A person who loses a limb, etc still feels it there because that spot of the body has already been mapped and now there’s no feedback from the body region.

  13. Hi. A thought occurred to me when I was reading this. The research presented in this article spoke of density of cells in an area of the brain as an indicator of gender identity. Could this mean that gender is not a binary male/female subject but rather a spectrum as there must be a great range of densities in different brains.

    Thanks

    1. That’s a great question! I’m not aware of any studies showing that the spectrum of brain structure correlates with how non-binary gender identity, but it is certainly possible. We know that how people identify their own gender is certainly non-binary, but we are just scratching the surface of the biology behind this.

    2. I had read in several scientific articles, that geneticists had discovered at least 6 genes for gender ID. If not more. It would make sense to me. May I ask if you are aware that during the triggering of the wrong reproductive organs, autism is genetically triggered? There is a higher percentage of ASD in the trans population, not by much, but it has been noticed by parents. Thank you

      1. I think there is some scientific literature to back this observation that there are higher rates of ASD in the trans population, but the reason for it is still unknown. Since we don’t entirely understand the biology behind ASD or gender identity, it is hard to say if/how they might be biologically linked.

  14. Hi, thank you so much for putting all of this together. Something I think that sets trans people apart(myself being one; and this is in reference to being transgender often times being compared to bdd, anorexia, among other things) is that anorexic people do not feel euphoria when allowed to have the treatments they want, whereas in trans people, when we receive hormones or surgery, it is often euphoric for us. Taking hormones is the most euphoric part of my day most days. This is usually something completely overlooked or not really even brought up. It’s the same way with the presence of my breasts, it feels very good and euphoric(and not at all in a sexual way; none of the euphoria is sexual, feels more like relaxation, as though there’s this constant anxious tension and it just gets released all of the sudden) to know they’re there. They bring me a lot of comfort and a lot of peace of mind. The fact that the science lines up overwhelmingly with my experience is so relieving. I wish that people would treat us like human beings and not as though we’re some kind of abomination or something. I will definitely be citing this and these studies in the future in defesense of myself and my choice to receive treatment.

    1. People with BIID also experience relief and euphoria at the prospect and realisation of their goal of limb removal. Some sexual in nature some not.

  15. The images on here are very misleading, tending to look as if the numbers of deviants of all stripes are equal to that of normals. There should be a huge circle with a tiny area around the edges for the various types of mal-adjusted individuals.

  16. Many thanks to Katherine Wu and her associates for writing this article. I’m a transwomen and advocate and this sort of writing is immensely helpful for our work. I also appreciate the patient and reasoned responses to the comments. I hope there will be more scientific studies on the Trans phenomenon and more articles like this explaining the science to the rest of us.

  17. Responding to Clyde R.’s comment: “Maybe you don’t understand the scientific method but the scientific method is making a hypothesis, and then designing multiple experiments that would disapprove that hypothesis. ” No, sir – maybe YOU don’t understand it. You’re actually trying to school a Harvard Biological and Biomedical Sciences doctoral student on the scientific method? Like, for real???

  18. Thank you for this excellent and enlightening article on recent research into the biology of transgender. Given the complexity of living systems, it is almost intuitive that a single trait of an organism occurs on a spectrum of expressions of that trait within the population, a normal distribution. In each individual, his or her trait represents the cumulative expression of multiple varying influences: genomic, epi-genomic and environmental.

  19. There are over 100 sexually dimorphic areas in the brain yet based in 2 areas this article concludes that trans people have brains more similar to the opposite sex.

    Yet in fact only 6% of people have brains that are entirely typical in all areas. For 94% of people their brains are intersex – a mosaic of male and female areas. Therefore this claim of 1 or 2 brain areas giving an opposite sex brain is even more spurious.

    All this shows is that this area of the brain may be giving a person erroneous inform about their sex just as a person with BIID may have an incomplete brain body map . We would not then conclude if the body map was missing a leg that the physical leg wasn’t there. It would simply mean that the person’s sensation that their leg should not be there was neurologically based rather delusional.

    However as many people with delusions also have brain differences – ie schizophrenia, where they are still considered delusional, it’s not saying very much. We do not affirm a schizophrenics worldview simply because their brains are demonstrably different.

    Whilst the small amount of evidence indicates that there are potential genetic factors influencing trans people this does not preclude other aetiologies. It in fact appears that there is a large surge in the number of people now claiming to be trans gender and that many of them have co morbid mental health conditions which suggest this may be a non genetic aetiology.

    It is entirely possible that there a tiny number of trans people who are influenced by brain structure as set in the womb and a larger number who have mental health issues. As the brain imaging on the bstc can only be carried out post mortem it is impossible to tell the two apart. But whichever the case the idea that a person really is the opposite sex is unsupported by the evidence.

    As the gender is a spectrum – all we can say is that 94% of people have brains structures which have both male and female typical components. It could then be said then brains are largely intersex or that most people are non binary. Yet most people do not identify this way. They recognise that their biological sex is an absolute male or female and that their interests and traits like everyone elses are unique and usually a mix of what is considered male or female typical. However there is scant evidence to link their interests to brain structures.

    This article like so many seems determined to give scientific weight to a politically popular theory without any rigour or real analysis of the data.

    1. Please note that American Academy of Pediatrics is legit. 60,000 member, they’ve released a new policy statement in response to edict to repeal protections, 2017. Look for Statement Policy on Transgender. Know the American College of Pediatricians is an SPLC designated hate anti-LGBT group, of 60 members. A psychiatrist who writes from a christian view (IMHO) at Johns Hopkins named Paul McHugh is listed as writing their policy statement, & the way it is written is juvenile, unscientific, and a blatant grab at debunking true researcher’s works. The staff at JH a few years ago, signed a petition to get his paper of “review of research” discredited, so they could all as physicians move on with the true scientific/medical research results obtained by others. There is now suspiciously also a new web site, attempting to debunk transgender/gender neutral science: it states the kids will “naturally grow into their own gender” and “is actually an anti-LGB agenda”. Well color me surprised!! NOW LGB are OK w/the religious? I am retired RN, and have great respect for those who work on finding out what goes on in our biological/genetic bodies. These juvenile attempts to debunk their work are just silly. Also know one’s non-medical opinion is not fact. Know that any/all “mental issues” transgender, gender neutral have are due to the rabid response from our society at this time. They live in fear of being outed due to landlords evicting, boss’s firing, health care is a big issue. Their unhappiness stems from outer society non-acceptance. Indigenous peoples had 5-6 genders accepted until Christian missionaries demanded a binary of them. Transgender, gender neutral have always lived amongst us- you just didn’t know. Why should they return to hiding just to assuage individual ickiness about it? Some people I know are also just thinking over their life, and seeing they are neutral. I am straight. Having been an RN for 30 years I have a really hard time not accepting medical science, or judging a human being.

      1. If you had done any research on those genders, you wouldn’t use them as a talking point. You would know that they often applied it to homosexual (regardless of what these cultures considered, homosexuality is defined as an attraction to the same sex) and infertile males or males with obvious intersex conditions. Throughout history, there is a disproportionate amount of males “outside of the binary” compared to females. Especially in patriarchal societies where sex based roles are enforced either because they don’t conform to what it means to be a man or the family needed more women to fulfill household duties.

        http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/

        Look at that map. An extremely large percentage of these genders apply strictly to males. If transsexualism were really a prevalent condition in the brain not reacting correctly to sex hormones, would it not apply to females in these societies as well? Why is there no evidence or prevalence of these FTM transsexuals existing in those cultures? Is it perhaps because sex based roles (not gender roles. Women have been placed in caretaker positions because of their sex, not gender) are actually considerably harmful to the development of a person’s identity?

        1. ok, so, it sounds like what you’re saying is that since patriarchal oppression stunts the growth of identity, that’s why there’s so much more evidence for MtFs, cuz female assigned people have historically​ had less opportunity to self actualize, and if a genius level IQ is trumped by a vagina in most cases then so is a desire to be male

          but it sounds like what you think you’re saying is that FtMs never existed until the Internet and therefore all the science is wrong and trans identities are imaginary, and case studies like Dr. James Barry can be explained completely by the acquisition of male privilege, but a conspicuous absence of trans men in any given historical record cannot

          I’m no expert on two-spirits and can’t answer for the relative prevalence of AMABs vs AFABs in any given culture except to point out that you literally answered your own question

      2. are you a dr? idk nurses specialized in brain development …. idk you took embryo development ect ect….. are you going to now tell us that your opinions arent going to dictate what facts you find? a dr being a christian makes him not reliable and yours reliable? wouldnt in that theory mean he wouldnt be a dr bc they dont believe in modern medicine or science? (some how they believe a cluster of cells in the womb is human but not liberals with their science dont think its human) i think Christians would be less interested in facts, but this dr isnt. thats kinda totally fcked up to assume just bc you are christian that you cant believe in science or facts…. wouldnt being a liberal become a bias the same way a non christian would influence their opinion ? Dr Paul does this okay on top of being a psychiatrist, is a biostatistician…. which is someone who uses or applies mathematics and statistics to varying categories in biology. They design biological experiments primarily in the field of agriculture and medicine; they collect, dissect, and summarize the data, and release information based on the findings of that data.

        how is he going to be biased?

    2. I like your thinking. It makes sense to me. I always have trouble with trans people’s claim that they are “the other” gender as if gender were such a binary clear cut identifiable–and yes, objective–thing. Using trans language I could say that I’m a straight “cis” woman who has never enjoyed make-up and so-called “feminine” dresses or playing with dolls and yet this is how trans men claim they have always known they were not girls. I think it is one thing to accept and respect all ways of being and another to re-cliche them. There is no real progress in that. Not liking mascara does not make me a man, and liking it does not make you a woman.

      1. “I always have trouble with trans people’s claim that they are “the other” gender as if gender were such a binary clear cut identifiable–and yes, objective–thing.” – Trans individuals do not always have to be the “other” gender. You will not find someone more understanding of the non-binary as a trans person.

        “Using trans language I could say that I’m a straight “cis” woman who has never enjoyed make-up and so-called “feminine” dresses or playing with dolls and yet this is how trans men claim they have always known they were not girls.” – Ok so using the language, you are Cis, you just said it. Trans men claim they have known they were not girls because they always thought/acted/dressed/felt/cried/loved/hated like boys, until society told them their masculinity didn’t fit them. You are confusing gender “norms” with gender “identity.” Everyone is individual.

        “Not liking mascara does not make me a man, and liking it does not make you a woman.” – I agree with this one.

  20. As an XX male, all I have to say on the subject for those who want to argue that genetics are immutable… you’re wrong. Period.

      1. I think she meant like, we can use crispr and other gene editing technologies to edit our genomes, so they are not immutable. She’s not wrong. Although no gene editing is going to convert an X chromosome to a Y chromosome, but hey, you do you.

  21. I found this article very interesting, and in glad that unlike so many others I’ve seen it actually sited studies and supporters. However, can you please include some studies/experiments that support the non-binary theory if you’re going to claim that science leads to that conclusion. There were no studies that said anything about non-binary gender identity, and yet the article still said it’s a thing.

  22. The “survey” from the NCfTE is frightening. It’s frightening that people with thinking minds take it seriously. What are the odds that people who believe they belong to a discriminated group would think that every ill that has befallen them can be blamed on discrimination. It boggles the mind. All of these things in this list are events that happen to people on a daily basis.. yes, even people with white privilege!! The difference is that white people don’t get to blame the bogey man of discrimination for it. They actually have to come to grips with reality and consider that there might be ACTUAL reasons for these things. Considering the amount of mental issues (not just the obvious transgender one – yeah, sorry, 0.3% of a population is an aberration, not a “spectrum”) that these people have is it really surprising that they experience these things (just like everyone else). The fact that they claim it was bias doe not make it so. People claim to have been abducted in flying saucers.. shall we believe all of them too? And do tell how homelessness can be blamed on gender expression? Are people just giving away houses? Homelessness is due to two things and two things only: bad choices and mental illness… I’ll let you take your pick where you think the transgender crowd fits in.

    Loss of job due to bias
    Eviction due to bias
    School bullying/harassment so bad the respondent had to drop out
    Teacher bullying
    Physical assault due to bias
    Sexual assault due to bias
    Homelessness because of gender identity/expression
    Loss of relationship with partner or children due to gender identity/expression
    Denial of medical service due to bias
    Incarceration due to gender identity/expression

    1. To live in a world where you still believe enough in the goodness of humanity that the idea that someone would just up and say they’re not comfortable hiring you or leasing a property or giving medical service because you’re trans just doesn’t enter your mind. Must be nice.

  23. It is ridiculously unscientific to take a small sample size of MtF people (who underwent HRT), compare their brains to control males and females, find one part of the brain where they have more “female structure” and claim that their brains are female and that part of the brain determines one’s gender. That is totally backwards. It illustrates complete bias. In the majority of structures of the brain, pre-hormone trans people have gray matter volumes in-line with their biological sex.

    “We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones in order to determine whether gray matter volumes in MTF transsexuals more closely resemble people who share their biological sex (30 control men), or people who share their gender identity (30 control women). Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/

    1. I’m confused as to what you think is unscientific. This study is specifically focused on one brain region–they conclude that the difference they observe in that region support the idea that gender identity is related to brain structure. That seems like a fair conclusion to me. What do you think is “backwards” about it?

      Also, I think the people in this study were had not yet undergone HRT–the passage you quote says: ““We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones

    2. You forgot the remainder of that part of their finding from the link you posted, “However, the putamen was found to be “feminized” in MTF transsexuals. That is, the gray matter volume of this particular structure in the MTF transsexual group was both larger than in males and within the average range of females. Interestingly, in a positron emission tomography (PET) study, it was demonstrated that the left putamen in a sample of MTF transsexuals (n=12), who had no history of estrogen treatment, activated differently to odorous steroids when compared to control males (Berglund et al., 2008). Taken together, these findings lend support to the hypothesis that specific neuroanatomical features are associated with transsexual identity, where the particular role of the putamen requires investigation in future studies.”

  24. As a trans teen, can i just thank you for publishing this article, because you made me feel valid. I’m sick of people i the media discussing about my identity, as if it was something they’d have the right to discuss about. (discussions on the ’causes’ of being trans are a different thing) I’m really happy that people who actually know what they’re talking about try to cover this topic.
    Thank you for making me feel valid because in this society, i’m told everyday that i’m not.

    1. You are absolutely valid as a human being and your feelings about who you are are perfectly legitimate. That said, there is much to discuss and still discover about language and meaning surrounding the transgender experience. Right now, a narrative is being imposed which has the same problems that any narrative that is imposed. Plenty of people who do not reject their assigned gender and who accept that the genitals they’re born with determine their gender (male, female, intersex) do not, on the other hand, attach to gender the attributes that trans culture seems to attach. Plenty of these people do not believe that likes and dislikes have anything to do with gender, just with individual diversity. If liking dolls, long hair, pretty dresses and big boobs is a marker for female gender, there must be something wrong with flat chested cis women who don’t like those things and are okay with it.

      1. lol, you misspelled “patriarchy” as “trans culture,” that’s pretty funny

        gender identity =/= gender roles

        I see from your multiplicity of comments that you are probably sincere. I guess my remarks wherein​ I explicitly addressed your concerns long before you got here just weren’t good enough. that’s too bad, but I’m sure you and your strawman will be very happy together

      2. There is nothing wrong with a flat-chested cis gender woman who doesn’t conform to society’s standards of gender norms, or who is not stereotypically “feminine.” The key here is that she is cisgendered, and her brain and it’s chemicals match with her biological sex. She feels like a woman without makeup, long hair, dresses, or even with these things because she identifies as a woman/feels like one/has the chemicals of one. Nothing at all out of the ordinary. She may have been feminine growing up (gender normative) or a tomboy growing up (plenty of cisgendered women are).

        The key is that while she doesn’t conform to society’s gender norms, also not all trans individuals conform to society’s gender norms. Those likes have nothing to do with gender, but purely a person’s interests.

        Many trans women get more focused media attention if they look overtly feminine as you describe. But not all are overtly feminine. What if, while being raised, they knew they were not a boy and were different, but the boy gender norms were pressured on them? What if, now, as a woman, they could finally express themselves in a feminine manner? There is nothing wrong with expressing yourself as you desire, perhaps for the first time in your life. This is why, perhaps, some trans women go very heavily towards “ultra-femme.” At least at first until they get comfortable with their style.

        Hope it helps.

  25. Possible scenarios??? Maybe’s all over the place…I don’t think so, you just want it so.

  26. If a paranoid schizophrenic believes that he’s Elvis, should we give him the keys to Graceland, or if he thinks aliens are reading his mind should we tinfoil his house? For some reason we choose not to conform this individual’s perception to reality. The same applies to transgenderism. A transgender person might well “identify” with a different sex but no amount of hormone therapy or surgery will ever change them biologically. A man will never ovulate, a woman will never create sperm. It’s just indulging the delusion. Also, most of the underlying mental health issues remain even after the individual undergoes reassignment surgery. What a surprise! Postmodernism has a lot to answer for.

    1. so by your reasoning, men and women who are infertile aren’t really men or women, right? so what are they then?

      1. It’s a man or woman with a disease or problem that caused that. See, that’s the issue. It isn’t just that they can’t help it people want perpetuated. That I can contend with, but to pretend it’s completely “normal” is absurd. Why is it that every disease, mental illness, sickness or whatever is classified as not being optimal or something to fix, yet gender dysmorphia is completely normal. That’s dangerous thought and leads to genetically mutilation being the “answer” instead of trying to find a much more appropriate treatment.

        1. lol, if genetic “mutilation” is available you’ve just made around a million people rly rly happy

          I don’t understand why “normal” and “something to fix” have to be mutually exclusive. people with cancer are normal. people with bipolar disorder are normal. but of course that’s what you really mean, innit, that we’re all mentally ill and mentally ill people are icky.

          you seem to have missed the part where we do generally consider our condition treatable and in fact that’s the point of “mutilation” so again, what you really mean is, “I think this is icky and therefore the treatment for DYSPHORIA as agreed upon by 98% of medical professionals isn’t good enough for me and I think these freaks need shock therapy.”

          your terminology and syntax are bad and you should feel bad

          your logic and reasoning are bad and you should feel bad

  27. “the typical assigned sexes are “male” and “female,” often designated at birth”
    Yes, but not by some random whim or hunch, they are designated by the biological presence of male and female sexual organs, except in rare cases where mutations exist.

    “many of the studies that have been conducted – particularly psychological studies – have since been widely discredited ”
    Discredited by whom? The truth is that most of the scientific evidence still supports the fact that transgenderism is a psyhological condition. However, due to social pressures, many scientists are finding it increasingly difficult to study this field in an objective and independent manner. Any study not fitting the current social narrative run the risk of being unfunded or suppressed. This is hardly conducive to good science. The pursuit of scientific truth should be allowed to proceed unfettered by social constructs or political expediencies, regardless of how uncomfortable some may be with the results of the study. People can be free to debate the conclusions, but the science should not be silenced before the fact. Do we really want to return to the time of the Inquisitions where people felt threatened knowledge and sought to suppress scientific development?

    1. y’know, I was more or less* with you until you conflated the political interests of a tiny and objectively persecuted** minority with a return to sweeping theocratic oppression

      *I guess the removal of Gender Identity Disorder from the DSM-V isn’t good enough for you when discussing the credibility of psych studies, so I can only assume you personally are an internationally respected mental health professional with conflicting research of your own

      **spoiler alert: we the trans community suffer far more on the cross of religion than under the microscope of study

  28. Hi. There’s a lot of comments here so I’m sorry if this has already been mentioned. Regarding the first two diagrams you present, on gender identity and sexual orientation, you may want to consider not using “Two-Spirit” as an intermediary between male and female gender identities. This term originates from and thus belongs to Native American communities, and I think some Native American LGBT folks might find it inappropriate to use that term to refer to LGBT folks outside of their communities. Instead, perhaps use “nonbinary,” which I believe is the more mainstream/technical umbrella term for anyone who identifies outside of the gender binary. Secondly, though less importantly, the idea that pansexuality means that gender does not factor into sexual preference may not be accurate for all people who identify as pansexual. I personally identify as pansexual as a more inclusive term over bisexual, acknowledging that I can be attracted to people of any gender. However, I would not say that I am attracted to people *in spite of* their gender, as I still subscribe to different preferences corresponding to different genders. This may not be the same for all pansexual-identified people, but I think that the subset it is true for may be substantial enough to render your diagram/definition incomplete.

  29. You seem to be at least a somewhat reasonable person, so I do hope you see this and respond.

    My issue with today’s science is that it is unbelievably biased based on political norms of today’s society. Sure, science has always needed to deal with politics, but as of late it seems to be something that’s extremely burdened by expectations, thanks to identity politics.

    My concern with the studies shown are really the continued outcomes of science today. It, nearly 100% of the time, without fail, has concluded exactly what the study set out hoping to find. That’s never good. Confirmation bias is scary. Obviously I’m not talking things of minute importance, but things the team would have a hard time accepting if not true. You even mentioned the ethics of it essentially “being in their head” earlier. What would be ethically wrong with someone having a mental issue that convinces them they are of another gender? They can’t help that, just as they can’t help it if it is a brain difference. And I guess I don’t fully understand why it isn’t a mental issue when they received less hormones during pregnancy that caused the dysmorphia they have today.

    For example, I have OCD, yet I can’t help that I have it, but it’s still a mental disorder. It isn’t “normal” to have. The answer in my mind is purely politics. There’s this incessant need to prove it’s completely fine, but when was it not completely okay? They can’t help it, sure, but why is it not a mental disorder? See, the issue I have with politics seeping into science is that it obscures the truth. This is disheartening because all you’re doing is hurting transgendered people. For example, to even suggest trying to find a medicine or something else to help them feel happy in their own skin would lead to outcry. Meaning you would rather put people through the horrible process of surgery and hormone replacement without even trying to find something better because it’s “solved.” No it isn’t. There has to be a better way to help them.

    Then you move on to state there’s this “spectrum” of genders. You didn’t really prove that at all. If you’re referring to specifically gender, sure there are people who are more or less masculine and feminine, etc, but society has always understood that. Where do you think the term “Tom boy” came from? You’re still either male or female regardless of your femininity or masculinity. Why should that even remotely change? It seems to me people just want to feel special, but that’s what a name is for. That’s what is designed to differentiate you. Male and female is more used to determine your genitalia.

    I have no doubt you probably just want to call me a bigot or this or that, but the truth is that I legitimately care about transgendered or really anyone who’s suffering. I just hate the fact that science has been so tainted by political expectations that I don’t recognize it anymore. Science is about truth, not feelings.

    1. (a) it’s not a verb, it’s an adjective

      “transgender”

      (b) no, your OCD is not normative. however, it does not make YOU and YOUR EXISTENCE less “normal.”

      PARTICULARLY​ from a medical standpoint. in fact, I’d say that in a scientific sense, OCD is pretty frickin run of the mill. certainly it’s not gonna cost you any legal rights in and of itself.

      unlike being transgender

      htf, literally, SRSLY, do you people not understand that any political agenda driving the research has been set in motion by arguments seeking to deny us agency over our own bodies after DECADES of “other therapies”? that the whole entire reason we want a definitive “cause” is so that busybodies telling us how to manage our lives and our “conditions” can finally eff off for the long haul? jfc

      you’re 10000% bringing your own value judgments to the table about this “horrible process” when you could be doing something useful like helping us protest the fact that many states will not allow documents to be changed without a minimum number of “horrible” procedures completed. but no, you’d rather concern troll about how grossed out you are. do you also shame women who get boob jobs? cuz if so you’re a total intestinal dropping

      are you aware that the several billion dollar a year plastic surgery industry wasn’t invented by trans people

  30. It is disturbing to read all the vitriol being expressed. I would like to add a few comments that I do not believe have yet been expressed. (If they have, and if I missed them, I apologize.)

    My doctorate is in neuroscience, but I am most assuredly not an expert on gender, so feel free to take this post with a grain of salt (or as my college physics teacher used to say, “with a grain of malt”!).

    A number of posters are making a mistake that is common is discussions relating to human perception, behavior, thought, emotions, feelings, etc.; that is, whether or not it is “biological.” Unless one believes that one’s own – or another’s – thoughts are being controlled by an outside force (at the risk of sounding silly, by an alien mind probe, for example), I hope we can agree that the aforementioned characteristics are all epiphenomena of the brain. As such, they are all undeniably “biological.”

    Colloquially, there are two ways in “biological” may be used. The first is to distinguish it from “psychological,” the second is to mean that it is genetic.

    The notion of something being psychological vs. biological is perhaps better stated as psychological vs. “organic.” While this distinction does have value, it is important to keep in mind (pun unintended) that it is a distinction that is mostly a reflection of our incomplete knowledge, in particular with respect to “size.” For example, suppose someone begins to exhibit changes in mood, personality, or cognitive ability; or for that matter, coordination. If we can detect a lesion – say, a tumor, or vascular change – we term it “organic.” But if the change in the brain is too small for us to detect with current imaging techniques, we term it “psychological.” But the observed changes in mood, behavior etc. are certainly caused by a physical change in the brain; this could be a change in synaptic connections; or in neurotransmitter levels; or neurotransmitter receptor sensitivity, among other possibilities. Again, in both cases, a physical change has occurred in the brain; the salient difference being that in one case it is large enough for us to detect, while in the other case it is too small. The point I am trying to make is that a behavior (or perception, or mood, etc.) that is deemed “psychological” is due to physical changes in the brain, a fact that is all too often overlooked.

    The second point which seems to have taken on great importance in discussions of sexual preference and gender identity, is whether there is a genetic “cause.” The often unspoken rationale seems to be that if it is due to genetics it is “real’” or not the person’s fault; whereas if it is not due to genetics, it is at best, a choice; at worst, imaginary. This too reflects a lack of understanding of brain function. I must reiterate that ALL aspects of a person’s behavior and thought processes are due to the functioning of the trillion or so neurons in the brain, and the tens (or hundreds) of synapses through which neurons communicate with one another. Rest assured, that everyone of us – no matter how “normal” you may consider yourself to be – is at the mercy of our synapses (and hormones). Genes certainly contribute to our brain organization, but so do epigenetic factors, as well exposure to hormones (both during development, and afterwards), as well the environment in which we grew up and live. As a scientist, I am certainly interested in understanding the relative contributions of these factors to being transgender. However, I do not, and hope society will follow suit, use these to judge the veracity of the claims of transgender individuals that the gender to which they feel differs from their “biological” sex. (I use quotes because there is no single absolute determinant of biological sex; is it chromosomes? appearance of the genitals? a combination?) I used to date a woman with a transgender child. I accompanied her to meetings of a support group, and met many transgender children (and their parents). The degree of suffering endured by these children was (and is) horrific. I would like to think that no one here could remain unmoved by their suffering.

    Last, but certainly not least, is the issue of whether or not being transgender is a mental illness. It is important to understand that what is and is not a mental illness is arbitrary. Unlike the speed of light, or Planck’s constant, mental illness is defined according to human-defined criteria, which change over time, and in different societies. In reading threads such as this one, and many others like it, I get the sense all too often, those individuals who are the most offended by transgender individuals, want to label them as mentally ill as a means to justify their intolerance. Oddly enough, the lack of tolerance is often expressed by those with strongly held religious beliefs; I find this both sad and paradoxical, in that most religions are supposedly based on the notion that G-d loves everyone.

    I am well aware that opinions expressed on forums are rarely changed. I can only hope that my post will result in at least some participants viewing transgender individuals in a different light.

    Respectfully,
    Larry

    1. THANK you for this response

      I am absolutely floored by the way people will accept “you’re not you when you’re hungry, have a Snickers” without question, but the idea that brain/body interaction on a lifetime basis has turned out to be just a wee bit more fluid and complicated than homonculus theory is somehow wildly unacceptable

    2. Hello Laurence Borden,

      What is your view of the role of instinct in biology/psychology. I appreciate that gender expression varies between cultures and epochs. Is gender itself, though, a basic instinct like birds what build certain types of nests peculiar to the bird, or who know when it is time to fly south and where to fly to?

      My personal experience as an early onset transsexual (under three years of age) is that dysphoria is like a psychic “toothache” that pounds relentlessly, and is at least an order of magnitude more intense than the sex drive. It is more akin to thirst or breathing. I suggest these latter analogies as the BTSc is in the hypothalamus. The odd thing, Laurence, is the deep and immediate relief from hormone replacement (HRT) therapy and by “transsexing”–migrating, so to speak, to the gender of affirmation. HRT feels, at least in my case though others report similar effects, as if water or breathing is restored after being withheld. It is also my understanding the hypothalamus regulates some forms of instinctive bonding, leading me to speculate that gender identity directs the individual to their “gender group.”

      I wonder how you view this inasmuch as for me the biological and psychological are very blurred. If it is instinct, and you have not said it is, are there instincts that are mentally unsound if they manifest in one group (females) and not in another (males)? Was homosexuality once considered an illness because homosexuas were not doing their heterosexual duties per their God-given instincts?

      V-

  31. Jesus – who gives a f? How do all of you have time for this? Have you nothing more important to do?

  32. Can someone help me out a little bit please. Is this article based on pure facts or is this still theoretical ??

  33. From a detached viewpoint, it’s scientifically interesting, to be sure, but I can’t help but comment on its cisnormativity.

    Wu repeatedly uses expressions like “insufficient feminization” and “exposed to inadequate levels of estrogen during development” to explain why people are transgender. In other words, being transgender isn’t a normal human variation, it’s an aberration, something terrible to be fixed. While I appreciate being upgraded from being mentally ill to merely having a devastating birth defect, it’s not on par with how transgender people think or speak of ourselves. Nor am I happy with the intimation that the ultimate goal is a world in which people like me do not exist.

    She also appears to be very ambivalent on whether she imagines a transgender person’s gender as a choice or biological reality. She’ll say, on the one hand, “it is not a conscious choice”, but then later talk about our “chosen sex.”

    One might also take issue with her choice of “biological gender” over a more neutral term such as “sex assigned at birth” (or better yet, “gender assigned at birth”), thus reifying this idea that there is a “true” gender which transgender people are at odds with — which really takes us right back into “choice” and “mental illness” territory, despite her protests to the contrary.

    I think, first and foremost, Wu needs to decide which side of the divide she’s on, and then (assuming the side she wants to be on is ours) sit down with some trans advocates who can help her with her language. As it stands, she has a long way to go before transgender people could call her an ally.

    1. first off its nothing that can be fixed
      to cure the emotional aspect of it is to live by gender identity
      but i consider me being a girl with a birth defect my male body is that birth defect
      theres far more to this then this science but a way we can fix it all is to abolish gender roles
      its hard to view what the world would look like at that point only that it would be better but ppl would need to grow into it and when they do theyd see ppl alot differently then any of us see ppl
      and the grossed out feeling some anti lgbt ppl get when seeing a guy in a dress would cease to exist the same way that girls getting civil rights to wear pants did back in that era ppl were just as disgusted with a girl wearing pants as some our of a guy wearing a dress are today
      as for gender identity thats hard to say the stigmatization of gender and the differentiating of gender roles would no longer exist but differents in body would still exist making transgenders to still exist but whether theyd be called transgender if both sexes are treated 100% equal

  34. Schizophrenia is linked to abnormalities in the brian. Apparently there’s at least one person on here who’s offended by the scientific evidence stated in this article that there’s a misappropriation of chemicals that leads to the feeling of being in the wrong body. Should schizophrenic people challenge the idea that they have a mental illness just because they speak to animals? After all it’s their brains fault, right? Among the dozens of comments I read, one of them stated that missionaries forced tribes into accepting M and F roles. I certainly don’t deny that this has ever happened, (unfortunately) but I do know that I’ve watched documentaries on undiscovered people groups where gender roles were similar to that of most developed nations and they had never met a missionary. Further more there are counties that flat out reject Christianity and they have similar gender roles as the rest of the world. It seems that the oberservation of rare occurrences is being used to make something normal. Schizophrenia runs in my family and I’ve delt with the difficult task of trying to help family members understand that they have a mental illness. For years I believed that if they could grasp this idea they could help themselves. I’ve come to the conclusion that many mentally ill people are not able to reach a conclusion that their feelings will not allow them to reach. They really believe that the tv is talking to them because they really feel that way. Why does the LGBQ not add MI to support the mentally ill who really feel that they are the way they are and they should just be left alone? FYI I’m a Christian and a white male and a pastor for that matter. I have zero problem with the idea that gender confusion is based on malfunctioning chemicles in the brain as this article seems to indicate. I have no problem with the people who are struggling with this issue. Not anymore than I have with people who struggle with any mental disorder. I recognize that the term disorder is offensive, but if a faulty transmission of the proper chemicles is to blame then how can this not be considered a disorder? As a result of my family history I’ve struggled with depression. Suicide is much more likely in my family than the normal rate. I consider these things to be brain based, chemically caused disorders. Is it just that people don’t want to call it a disorder because it hurts their feelings? Why is it that there is a push to do away with all genders just because a very small amount of the population who didn’t receive the correct amount of a chemical doesn’t want to feel left out? It’d be like me pushing for an end to the labeling of all mental disorders just because me and my family have to deal with one, wouldn’t it? I’m not angry with anyone. Yes, I believe 100% in the Bible, but I recognize that those dealing with these issues are human beings with feelings. God also recognizes this and he loves all of you as much as me with my faults. I expect my comments to be taken offensively, but I’m genuinely curious about these things. I’m not trying to force my my ideas on anyone, I’m trying to understand.

      1. According to the study in this article it is an issue caused by issues with the brain. Schizophrenia is not a mental illness in the sense that it’s disassociated from the brain. You can actually see the difference in the brain of schizophrenics. This study states that they can now see the difference in the brains of those who do not identify with their born gender. Not only can they see a difference, but they even say they’ve pinpointed the chemical imbalance that leads to this issue. I’m not trying to call those who are transgender mentally ill, but apparently there is an identifiable reason why they feel the way they do. My issue is with the attempt to make what is normal, M F gender roles, somehow immoral just because some people suffer from this birth defect.(Forgove the term but that’s what this article states) There are M’s and F’s when all goes right with the developmental process of the brain. We should recognize that this is not hateful or somehow religiously forced. Men and women are different. If they aren’t different then there is no argument for being transgender. In all honesty I don’t understand your response to my post. You say therapist will look for signs of non-trans issues, but I’m not claiming that trans people are schizophrenic or anything like that. Only that they are different because of an issue with their brain.

  35. Hello Maria,
    I am responding to you you about early onset gender dysphoria. When I referred to “baked in” I did not mean cooking as much as I mean gender identity occurs prenatally, likely in the first trimester. That’s what I mean, not the act of making meals. Sorry for the confusion.

    What did it feel like, you ask? I was 28-months old, according to my mother. I was playing in a sandbox. I simply “knew” I was a girl. I knew what daddies were, and boys were, and men were, and that was perfectly okay and I had not problem with them. But I was not like them and never would be. A bit later I tried to explain that my parents had made a mistake and asked them, thinking they would help me, to change my outer presentation to match my inner being. I wanted to grow my hair out and to wear dresses and girls’ shoes. I wanted my mother to teach me the ways of womn and I wanted to go join the girls.

    This was *my* idea. No one put me up to it. In fact my parents were horrified when I said I was a girl and vigorously tried to disabuse me of my assertion. By why? I was not and never would be a boy. If a person takes Christ into their heart, they don’t usually do it because they like attending church (like cooking). It’s the other way around. If Jesus comes into your heart, you just *know.* It is beyond words. It is beyond logic.

    Children know what they are. Like cis people know what they are, trans people likewise know about themselves. So many folks are putting the cart before the horse. Gender identity develops before kids play “doctor.” We are innocently unaware of what the “equipment” is intended for. We just gravitate. I just *knew* I belonged with the cows and not with the bulls.

  36. If gender is a linear spectrum and not binary, how do the “MtF Transsexual brains more closely resemble female brains” studies even make sense? Shouldn’t male, female, and ‘in between’ brains all be plotted on this spectrum of yours? At the very least, the image showing male neurons, female neurons, and transsexual neurons being identical to the female set contradicts the articles own claims. More likely, it is simply a lie.

    Gender theorists want to plot gender as this orthogonal spectrum where everybody is a little bit different, full of men, women, both-ands’, neither’s, and others. But all their research begins with the assumption that there is such a thing as a physically recognizable ‘man’s brain’, a physically recognizable ‘female’s brain’, and that finding some tiny structure in one sex that more closely resembles the other is proof of something. Even within this article, the only truth revealed is that the word ‘gender’ itself is what’s fluid, meaning whatever the progressive needs it to mean from one sentence to the next.

    The twin studies are also meaningless. Certainly, some men believe they are ‘actually women’, and they believe this with a deep conviction. I am prepared to believe that whatever is so deeply wrong with such a person could be influenced by genetics. But just because their horrible situation has a genetic influence doesn’t make their conviction true, any more than a genetic cause to schizophrenia would make the sufferer’s delusions true.

    One also has to consider the political side. Ask yourself; if somebody did a study and found the opposite conclusions, what would happen to their career? You don’t have to ask, you can find out with a simple Google search. Anybody who has concerns about, say, giving children HRT, or the suicide rates of post-op transsexuals, or that the definition of gender is not rigorous to have a basis in science at all is simply chased off the stage. It’s not a coincidence that this Harvard paper acts as if this systematic deconstruction of their entire argument doesn’t exist:

    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf

    I don’t think they are malign, they probably never read it or heard about it. If they admitted to reading it, they would probably lose their jobs. That is the nature of the field.

    What is the point of a ‘scientific inquiry’ where only one conclusion is permitted from the start? Ask Lysenko.

  37. There needs to be more studies that compares brains of various individuals at different ages without any hormone therapy involvement and more importantly an extremely larger sampling size. It seems some scientists have jumped to conclusions without doing adequate comparisons in different types of people and personality types (i.e. tomboy/effeminate male), sexual preferences, upbringing and environment. Also scientists need to look at what effect hormonal imbalances of the mother might have on the unborn children. I’m not saying transsexualism is a choice, but there may be other variables, not just genetics that lead to someone feeling they were placed into the wrong sex at birth.

    I don’t think any of the studies are conclusive enough to make any legal judgements.

    1. ofc there are many many many variables the point of this research isnt to explain everything but to show there there is much more to this and that biology is proven to not be 2 sided as alot of ppl want to think
      it just proves that just cause your body may apear as 1 sex doesnt mean its your true gender
      the research is ongoing were going to keep researching until everyone can feel comfortable in there life and noone has to feel confined or as if they need to be how there born or even that they need to pick 1 or the other
      but so they can feel truly free

      if you confine yourself to only things from society implemented gender roles on 1 side you will restrict yourself from something youd otherwise have enjoyed w/o the gender role

  38. This blog post is filled with a lot of trans propaganda and also a lot of straight BS!

    At the end of the day, no matter what conclusions the medical sciences community agree upon, trans people are not the biological sex that they attempt to present themselves as. Here in the real world, most people across the globe, for the sake of romance/sex/relationships, care a great deal (as in deal-breaker), about the biological sex of the person they may get to know.

    With regards to relationships, sexual attraction/sexuality is what determines what type of human being we are interested in having a relationship with. Sexual attraction. Not gender attraction.

    We all know by now (or should know by now) that gender and biological sex, are not the same things. Gender is who you are (sense of self, thoughts, and feelings). Biological sex is what you are (sex chromosomes, primary sex and reproductive organs, and the ability to seed or give birth).

    While the pro-trans community is busy trying to redefine biological sex and or trying to replace it and its importance with gender, the truth remains as it always has. 98% of the world (including almost all trans people because most of them are NOT people with an intersex condition); fall within TWO GROUPS of human beings.

    Group 1: A person having XY sex chromosomes, male primary sex and reproductive sex organs, male secondary sex characteristics, and the ability to seed birth.

    Group2: A person having XX sex chromosomes, female primary sex and reproductive organs, female secondary sex characteristics, and the ability to give birth.

    These two groups are known as biological sex by the majority of the medical sciences community. No matter what label they have, these two groups will ALWAYS exist and will ALWAYS be the most important factor for most people when choosing a sexual partner/relationship. No matter what words get spun, no matter what studies take place; these two groups are how we as human beings seek out relationships to support our natural desires. Desires that can not be changed by words spoken by the LGBT community.

    As a straight male, I only consider relationships with biological females. That is a natural desire. Just as natural and unwavering as a homosexual man, only having an interest in other biological males. Speaking of which, what is it that makes a man gay? Gender has nothing to do with it. What makes a man gay, is his desire to be with someone who is the same biological sex as he is.

    With regards to the brains of trans people being that which matches their gender identity, no such conclusions have been made by the majority of the medical science community. Even if such a conclusion had been reached, that would not negate the reality of the entire human body and its biological sex.

    “Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic

    “Abstract

    Whereas a categorical difference in the genitals has always been acknowledged, the question of how far these categories extend into human biology is still not resolved. Documented sex/gender differences in the brain are often taken as support of a sexually dimorphic view of human brains (“female brain” or “male brain”). However, such a distinction would be possible only if sex/gender differences in brain features were highly dimorphic (i.e., little overlap between the forms of these features in males and females) and internally consistent (i.e., a brain has only “male” or only “female” features).

    Here, analysis of MRIs of more than 1,400 human brains from four datasets reveals extensive overlap between the distributions of females and males for all gray matter, white matter, and connections assessed. Moreover, analyses of internal consistency reveal that brains with features that are consistently at one end of the “maleness-femaleness” continuum are rare. Rather, most brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males.

    Our findings are robust across sample, age, type of MRI, and method of analysis. These findings are corroborated by a similar analysis of personality traits, attitudes, interests, and behaviors of more than 5,500 individuals, which reveals that internal consistency is extremely rare. Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.”

    Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.abstract

    “Is the Brain Gendered? A Q&A with Harvard’s Catherine Dulac

    Indeed, it is assumed that the male and the female brains are very different because males and female behaviors differ so significantly. But over the last few decades, neuroscientists have been looking for major anatomical differences and did not find that many. Actually, they’ve found surprisingly few differences: more neurons or more neuronal spines here and there in one sex or the other, with great variations from one individual to the other but that’s about it. So there is a paradox between this apparent similarity of the brains of males and females and the strikingly different behaviors they engage in.”
    Source: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/

    1. first off your wrong there are actually alot of ppl now who will date trans ppl and refferr to them by gender identity
      idk what your on about biology is not a defining factor to who you are relationships are always between ppl who love each other so if 1 person cant get over the fact that there transgender can you even call that love
      i know several lesbian relationships based between trans lesbians and cis lesbians
      this whole thing is not related to relationships its related to respect if you see a transgirl you treat them like any other transgirl
      idk how relationships got brought into this there far more complicated

      but as for me i get oddly hit on alot tho mostly by straight guys but im only into girls but i have been hit on by lesbians all of which knew i was trans
      ive even been hit on by girls i would have been interested in but i tyrn them down you want to know why?
      this may be unrelated but its cause i cant feel love you want to know why i cant feel love?
      its cause the 24 years i spent hiding who i was cause i was afraid of society i never learned how to love all i learned was how to hate i hate society for all they did to the trans ppl forcing a ton of ppl to live by biology
      tearing away childrens childhood and freedom sending kids to conversion therapy
      making kids fear who they are forcing a transgirl into a boys rest room which has resulted in the loss of countless lives including the loss of 1 of my few friends
      do you know what its like to not even know what love feels like
      every time someone in my family dies i feel nothing
      my dad helps me alot both financially and offers assistence in varioous things
      hes had 2 heart attks and i dont feel anything except that i might lose the help hes given me
      i can feel empathy i can care for another even be a little sad in there struggles but i can never love and i hate every part of it
      this is what happens when you give any kid reason to fear there true gender identity and it needs to stop
      i might be venting at this point tho my point is biology doesnt define you and noone should ever beilieve it should in any way

      1. “first off your wrong there are actually alot of ppl now who will date trans ppl ”

        Reality doesn’t agree with you or perhaps your idea of what “a lot” means is very different than that of mine and many others. Can we agree that a lot of trans women are beat and or killed? And so why do you think that happens? Because a lot of men are down with dating trans women?!

        “idk what your on about biology is not a defining factor to who you are”

        I made it clear that gender is WHO you are and biological sex is WHAT you are.

        “relationships are always between ppl who love each other so if 1 person cant get over the fact that there transgender can you even call that love”

        The more comments I read by you, the more it appears to be that you are not in touch with reality. Again, what makes a person gay or straight is based upon the biological sex they are attracted to. Do gay guys even consider dating a biological woman with a vagina? No! They don’t because they are drawn to people who are the same biological sex as they are; people who have a penis. That is what they lust for. Gender does not decide what type of sex organs you have. Biological sex does.

        “this whole thing is not related to relationships its related to respect if you see a transgirl you treat them like any other transgirl”

        Again, were you paying attention? I said that because of how important biological sex is to sexual attraction, that biological sex matters a great deal when it comes to relationships and how each sex sees sex. We as human beings are very sexual beings. It is in our nature. Sex matters a great deal to most people anywhere in the world. If there were no such thing as sexual attraction, then there would be no argument about trans women vs cisgender women. Everything having to do with trans women has to do with biological sex for the purpose of sexual attraction and the ability to give birth.

        “but as for me i get oddly hit on alot tho mostly by straight guys but im only into girls but i have been hit on by lesbians all of which knew i was trans.”

        So you say. I can’t tell the number of times I’ve heard other trans women claim the same.

        “ive even been hit on by girls i would have been interested in but i tyrn them down you want to know why?”

        No! I do not want to know why.

        “i might be venting at this point tho my point is biology doesnt define you and noone should ever beilieve it should in any way”

        Again, biological sex defines WHAT you are no matter what you choose to believe. One very annoying issue when it comes to trans people is that so many of you demand that the world forgets your biological sex. Less than 1/3 of trans people ever undergo SRS. That means MOST trans women have a penis. Yet you expect straight men to just be cool with that reality and want to date a trans woman?!?!?! Forget love! Before love two people have to get to know one another. Two people have to start dating. Most of us straight men have no desire to date someone who has a penis. That is what makes us straight.

        1. so basicly your saying all the many many many trans lesbians in a happy relationship are not real? you are mentally fked up i only ever get hit on by straight guys and lesbians who know im trans they hit on me because im a girl

          i will admit there are alot of crimes towards us a problem that is and will slowly fix itself
          as soon as trump goes bye bye
          but there are also alot of trans happily married to someone who shares there orientation
          some ppl may be shallow but a transgirl finds love to someone attracted to a girl not a guy
          i was only hit on by 1 gay guy but that was before i came out as trans and im still trying to figure out why he thought i was into guys
          straight girls are not into trans lesbians cause there not into girls and lesbians are more often ok with trans lesbians
          so to say ppl are attracted to genitalia is incorrect and a trans girl can easily be as much a girl as any cis girl

          1. “so basicly your saying all the many many many trans lesbians in a happy relationship are not real?”

            No! What I’m saying is exactly what I wrote. Nothing less and nothing more. I could post dozens of links to support everything that I’ve posted but I have no doubt that that would make a difference to you as you are clearly set on remaining on the path of wilful ignorance.

            “you are mentally fked up”

            If you want to start name calling, I can say the same and much more about you. There are several reasons why 41% of trans people attempt and or commit suicide yet the rate for the rest of the population is at less than 5%. My brain is in-sync with my body. I am exactly what nature intended. We both know that all the same is not true for you and all other trans people.

            “i will admit there are alot of crimes towards us a problem that is and will slowly fix itself as soon as trump goes bye bye”

            LOL!!! I’m just going to assume that you are a very young person. I’m not a Trump supporter but the fact is, that many people who voted for him, have many strong opinions that are against trans people in various ways. By your logic, are you under the impression that once Trump is gone, those people will stop believing what they believe?!?!

            Again, most violence against trans people has to do with angry straight men feeling “tricked” by trans women. That was before Trump and it will remain after Trump.

            “some ppl may be shallow”

            No matter how much BS comes out of your mouth, there is NOTHING shallow about a straight man not wanting to date/be with someone who also has a penis just like him. Get your brain out of fantasy land. Here, in reality, our sexual desires, are out of our control. We can not choose what turns us on and what turns us off. And before dating, sexual attraction happens first. If I were looking for a date at a bar, I wouldn’t go to a gay bar. Why? Because I don’t date guys. I already know that and that comes before even getting to know what someone is like within their mind. Again, you are so focused on what you want people to do, that you’ve lost touch with the reality of what people actually do, that which is not even within our control.

            “straight girls are not into trans lesbians”

            Straight biological girls are into biological males who also behave and present themselves like real men. You’re not a straight biological girl. You don’t get to decide what they do and do not like or do.

            “so to say ppl are attracted to genitalia is incorrect and a trans girl can easily be as much a girl as any cis girl”

            Again, you’re welcome to your opinions. However, that does not mean what you claim, is reality. I asked you what makes a person gay, and you failed to answer that simple question. Why don’t you look up the word homosexual? It has nothing to do with gender identity and everything to do with biological sex. Again, it’s called SEXUAL ATTRACTION. NOT gender attraction. SEXUALITY. Not genderality.

            I know myself and every biological male I know, have ZERO interest in dating a trans woman. Why? Because we are only interested in biological women. We have ZERO interest in dating someone with a penis. And most of us plan on having children. Why on earth would we choose to date a trans woman, when there are millions of real biological women available?!?!?! Should we date trans women because it would make trans women happy?! Dating/relationships, are the one choice that NOBODY has the right to tell you who you should like and be willing to be with.

            I, like all straight men, LOVE vaginas! I love that biological women, almost always have sweet voices that sound nothing like mine. Someday I want to have children with the woman I love. Life is filled with drama and so I try to stay away from as much of it as I can. All of the above applies to biological women, not trans women.

            You keep repeating that trans girls are just as much girls as cis girls. If that were true then my above paragraph would apply to trans girls but it does not. A trans woman is a trans woman. The definition of a trans woman is someone who IS a biological male with the gender identity within their mind that is most commonly associated with biological females. That is medical science fact, no matter what BS you keep spitting out.

          2. 40% of trans commit suicide because ppl like you make them feel as if they cant be who they truly are
            and what makes a person straight or gay is depending on there gender and the gender there attracted to
            you do not see very often a transgirl dating a straight girl in matter of fact a straight girl even 1 highly supporting of trans rights is more likly to break up if the person there dating transitions solely cause there not attracted to girls there may be sick ppl who cant get the idea threw there sick skull that a trans girl is a girl
            but for me im a trans lesbian i fully identify as a girl and im attracted to girls so i fail to see any merit what so ever in your argument my biology means nothing to me and to the respectful ppl in my life and where i live thank god my area is supportive ppl here dont look at biology they look at gender identity and tho in areas it doesnt look like this but in the us atm support for transgenders averages around 60% but negativity has a tendancy to speak louder then support and the
            there may be alot of hate groups out there but you look deeper youll find they dont have very many ppl
            gender identity is the only thing importaint and how ppl should always live there life a transgirl is a girl plain and simple

          3. Good Lord! There truly is no limit to the amount of BS that you’re willing to spit out. Seriously, how old are you?!?! You should have no problem answering that question because you’ve made it clear, just like most trans people, you seem to enjoy talking about yourself and your “journey” even when nobody is asking.

            “40% of trans commit suicide because ppl like you make them feel as if they cant be who they truly are”

            So now not only am I wrong about medical science facts but also according to you, I am responsible for trans people killing themselves?! Right! Just keep the delusions coming. You’re on a roll.

            Rather than continue with the willful ignorance, why don’t you do yourself a favor by reading and learning? Here is the complete 2014 ULCA study on trans suicide: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

            Note that there are many factors that lead to suicide. One of the chief issues has to do with trans people not being accepted by their own family. Another is not being able to find romantic love. Again, there is no evil, no wrong, in people desiring to be with people of the opposite biological sex. Would you have people date transgender people just to keep trans people happy?!

            I’m not against trans people being whoever they want to be. But reality steps in and says no matter what you feel you are, your biological sex is what it is and there is nothing we can do to change that. You can decide that gender is the only thing that matters to you. But you can not ask the world to stop caring much more about biological sex. You can’t ask us to do that because it is not natural to us. I didn’t choose to focus on biological sex. Nature chose for me.

            “and what makes a person straight or gay is depending on there gender”

            It’s as if you have your very own special dictionary. Back here in reality, what you’re claiming, is not true.

            GAY: “of, relating to, or exhibiting sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one’s own SEX; homosexual” http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gay

            Homosexual: “of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same SEX” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homosexual

            The rest of your post is you once again talking in circles making no real nor honest point. You are not a very knowledgeable person. You don’t do enough reading, that much is clear as day. Do you honestly believe that the random BS you keep repeating is to be believed just because you state it?!?!?! Are you seriously that full of yourself?!

            Supporting trans people and DATING trans people, are two VERY different things. Again, no matter how stubborn you want to be, there are NO words you can speak that are going to magically make the majority of us straight biological men want to be with a transgender woman. That is reality, no matter how much you hate it. You are NOT a bioloigical woman. You will never be a biological woman. Biological sex is a VERY big deal to most human beings. Period. You can talk in circles all day and night about gender this and gender that, meanwhile, the real world is passing you right by as you dance in fantasy land.

          4. Hello MalibuGuy,

            I sense we are running off the rails here. I do understand that some trans people are upset when they hear, “I don’t want my sister to marry one,” and other comments like that, and true or not, it feels the same to many that it is like saying “I will never ever date a person of color.”

            Trans people date cis people and they date within the LGBTQ+ community. Because of bad reactions, we usually do not reveal our trans pasts. For example I will not date a TERF-person because I know she does not want to date a women of transition, but I do not owe her any personal information up front because the relationship is going nowhere anyway. “It’s doomed before they take the vow,” as Henry Higgins said. I may tell a person later that I was boy assigned at bith, but I also may decide that information will add nothing to the relationship.

            Now as to the concerns about penises–not all women of transition have them. Nevertheless I am pretty sure that when it comes down to it, you would disqualify the people who were assigned boys at birth, regardless, right?. Intersex people likely would not be on your list either. Likely you only date 10s, right? Movie stars since you live out in the Bu.

            Again, this attitude is well-known to women of transition and it is why we are very careful around men (and women) whom we do not know. It is why we never make any kind of initial approach (I’m speak here more in trans lesbian dating scene) and we listen carefully how you roll. You start vibing anti-LGBTQ+ and we disengage. I can almost 100% assure you that every woman of transition will vet you, and so will cis women to find out what kind of guy you are, and likely you will be selected out by us and by many cis women, too. There are plenty of fish in the sea for all of us, right?

            You are safe. We aren’t interested in dating you and you aren’t interested in dating us., so stop worrying!

          5. the only 1 spitting out bullshit is you
            the only 1 who knows who i truly am what i truly like and so on is me
            theres no point going on cause your far to mentally lost and mentally fked up
            im a girl plain and simple nothing else its time you grow up

          6. The angry person trying to throw personal insults is telling me to “grow up.” LOL!!!!

            Once again, I really do not care what you think of yourself nor who you’re attracted to and why. That is your business and of ZERO interest to me. You keep bringing up yourself in that classic transgender narcissistic manner.

            Again, the definition of transgender is a person who’s gender identity, does not match their biological sex. You are a “girl” by way of your gender identity. You are male by way of your biological sex.

            You can choose what is right for you but you can NOT choose what is right for me nor anyone else. I, like most other straight men, have ZERO interest in ever dating a transgender “woman.” That is our choice and there are no words you can speak to change that.

          7. first off no transgirl would ever date you anyways
            this isnt meant as offense we do strive by orientation so no transgirl is going to be comfortable dating someone whos attracted to guys
            my issue is you seem to act as if everyone dates ppl based on biologic sex and that is not even remotely true most ppl do date based on gender identity and break up when a transition puts them out of there orientation
            what happens far to often in cases where a mtf is pre transitioned in a straight relationship decides to transition more often then not the girl will feel uncomfortable dating a girl
            what happens next tho can be bad id highly support a friendly break up over this but more often then not the girl says that you have to leave to transition this blinds trans ppl cause they dont want to lose them or what they have love is very powerful but also very deadly and will destroy any relationship from the inside out as well as add more harm to the transgender
            idc if you want to break up due to an orientation dillema but please no altimations and do it friendly and supportively

            also im asuming your a guy as it says guy in your name how do you expect to date a straight guy?

            also srry about my recent comment was a bit short handed i was just pissed at some other crap in life but still my biology means nothing to me but a birth defect im fully a girl in every way that matters to me

            now i got a dog to torment

          8. Virginia, you’re entitled to your opinions, just like I and everyone else is entitled to their opinions.

            “I sense we are running off the rails here. I do understand that some trans people are upset when they hear, “I don’t want my sister to marry one,” and other comments like that, and true or not, it feels the same to many that it is like saying “I will never ever date a person of color.””

            Sorry but that dog don’t hunt. Skin color is just skin color. A black biological woman is no different than a white biological woman, other than having different skin color and perhaps different hair thickness. Both can give birth. Both have real female primary sex organs. Both do not have a penis. Both do not have masculine biological male features such as broad shoulders, large hands, masculine jaw bone structure, etc. Trying to suggest that black skin vs white skin, is the same as biological male vs biological female, is nothing short of complete BS!

            “Because of bad reactions, we usually do not reveal our trans pasts.”

            We all know that. But perhaps you don’t realize that it is sick, wrong, and selfish to not disclose your biological sex. It’s not your “trans past.” It’s your real past, present, and future that your biological sex is male. Just because you’ve put it into the back of your mind, does not mean the world has done the same (with regards to dating). When it comes to dating, the person considering dating you has the right to know your biological sex. You may not agree with that but the amount of pain that it can bring to you and the wasted time; should be more than enough to give you something to think about. You do not get to decide what is and is not okay for other people. You fear telling dates because you already know how most people feel about it. Dating is the one thing that people have the right to choose what they want and don’t want and have no responsibility to give you a reason. People should not start dating trans people just because it will make trans people feel better about themselves. Dating is not just about you and what you want for yourself. Dating is about both people giving themselves to each other in order to make the other person happy/loved.

            “I may tell a person later that I was boy assigned at bith, but I also may decide that information will add nothing to the relationship.”

            That tells me all I need to know to know that you are a selfish, dihonest person who cares more about what you want than respecting other people. Period! Perhaps you are (or not) one of the very few trans women that “pass” very well. If you actually are (most do not even though they lie to themselves about it), and you choose to date someone and not tell them, you are doing them very wrong.

            Again, being a trans woman, means that you are a biological male that has a female gender identity. You are not a biological woman. If you were, then you would not be trans anything. Your doctor needs to know your biological sex. And ANYONE who you get involved with for the purpose of a romantic relationship and or sexual contact of any kind has the right to know the true biological sex of the other person. Again, you do NOT get to decide what is okay for other people. The fact that you actually think that you do, makes me sick to my stomach! Just shady as hell! Sick and wrong!

            It just amazes me just how selfish trans people can be. I’m not talking about meeting new friends. I’m not talking about bathroom laws and employment. I’m talking about sexual contact. I’m talking about romantic relationships. If you look, dress and behave like a biological woman, I’m going to assume that you are a biological woman because out of 350 MILLION people in the U.S., less than 1 million of them are trans and just over half of that less than 1 million, are trans women. I date biological women because I’m naturally attracted to them. When I meet a woman, I assume that she has a vagina and can probably give birth if we were to fall in love, get married and decide to have children. Those are things that are not possible with a trans woman. Less than 1/3 of trans people, undergo SRS. That means most trans people have their biological sex organs. And out of the few trans women that do have SRS done, a “neovagina” is NOT a real vagina. It is a simulation of the real thing. It can not self-lubricate itself. It can not facilitate pregnancy. It’s like having a fake sink attached to a wall but no pipes in the wall so no water comes out or goes down. Yet somewhere in that brain of yours, you actually think it’s okay to assume that people won’t want the real thing and will be okay with what you are if or when they find out.

            “Now as to the concerns about penises–not all women of transition have them. Nevertheless I am pretty sure that when it comes down to it, you would disqualify the people who were assigned boys at birth, regardless, right?. Intersex people likely would not be on your list either. Likely you only date 10s, right? Movie stars since you live out in the Bu.”

            As I stated above, the stats indicate that less than 1/3 of trans people ever undergo SRS (sex reassignment surgery). Most trans people have their biological sex organs. You don’t need to be pretty sure. You should already know that it is 100% fact that me like many, many guys, would not ever be willing to consider dating/having sex with a trans woman because they are not biological women.

            LOL!! What does dating “10’s” have to do with not having a desire to date a trans woman? Since you brought it up; I would rather date/sleep with (on that 1 thru 10 beauty scale you brought up) a 1 or 2 biological woman rather than a trans woman who looks like a “10.” You really just don’t seem to understand what a deal breaker the whole biological sex thing is. Again, you’ve put your biological sex deep within the back of your mind but I and most people have not and will not because it is are natural desires that make us lust over and want to be with members of the opposite biological sex.

            “Again, this attitude is well-known to women of transition”

            Yet another transgender person who does not appear to be fully in touch with reality. “Woman of transition.” Really?!?! You’re a transgender woman. You don’t just have a “trans past.” You are a trans person right here, right now and you always will be. You can twist words and be as shady as you want but that is NOT going to change reality. No amount of HRT drugs, no amount of SRS and no amount of LGBTQ propaganda, is ever going to transform you from being a trans person into not being a trans person. Your biological sex is never going to change. You are never going to talk the world into changing the desires of their hearts for the sake of making you feel more like a biological woman by being with you.

            “. I can almost 100% assure you that every woman of transition will vet you, and so will cis women to find out what kind of guy you are, and likely you will be selected out by us and by many cis women, too. There are plenty of fish in the sea for all of us, right?”

            “You are safe. We aren’t interested in dating you and you aren’t interested in dating us., so stop worrying!”

            LOL!!!! There is nothing that you can tell me/teach me about my dating life. FYI’ like I’ve already stated; I’ve been hit on by 2 different trans women here in the Los Angeles area. I have a girlfriend and even if I didn’t, there will never be a day when I have any interest in knowingly dating someone who is the same biological sex as me. There is nothing “anti-LGBTQ” about wanting to only date biological women. Dating is NOT a civil right. Nobody owes anyone, trans or not, the chance to date them. Those facts hurt your feelings. I get it. But just because you don’t like something, does not mean that any BS label you choose to attach to it, equals reality.

            You assume that not wanting to date trans people equals hate. You don’t seem to understand that not wanting to date trans people is not about hating you; it’s about wanting, lusting over, desiring biological women THAT much!

            If I meet a woman who happens to be a lesbian and therefore won’t even consider going out on a date with; does it make sense to you, to label her a hate-filled person?!?!?! She is onyl interested in people who are the same biological sex as she is. That IS the definition of being a lesbian. That’s what turns her on. She doesn’t want dick. She doesn’t like dick. She doesn’t get turned on by the thought of dick. I don’t have a vagina. So I’m out of luck with her. Thats how nature works. The rules don’t change for trans people, no matter how much they demand it.

          9. there are cis girls who also cant have kids a transgirl is no different
            1’s ability to have kids does not change who they are a transgirl is a girl in every way that really matters to them

          10. Hello MalibuGuy:

            Thank you for taking the time to answer my original comment to you.

            I would suggest you read the article (above) that you are commenting on the biology of trans people.

            Your essentialist view of trans people is out of date. Modern clinical studies and peer reviewing published finding are taking us in a very different direction from the one that you describe. Mostly you are describing people who have not been diagnosed and treated when they are young. The garish stereotypes you describe are people who did not get the right endocrine treatment early enough.

            Today trans youth are ever more being raised in the gender of affirmation. They are getting puberty blockers when they enter middle school which delay the effects of the irreversible and disfiguring puberties you so aptly describe. This allows time for counseling to make sure the transition is right. This is a decision made by the person, the parents, and medical professionals who treat trans youth. The blockers are totally reversible and if the person changes their mind about transition, they can simply stop taking them.

            In high school, with further counseling and living in role, cross-hormone therapy might be considered. A trans girl will develop wide hips like any female and will develop breasts like any typical girl. She fill not develop the jaw line to which you refer nor will she have male hair patterns. Her voice will not deepen. She will not grow overly tall not have a male frame–all the things you find disgusting. Believe me, she finds these things disgusting, too, and it is why she is willing to take the estrogen.

            For trans boys the treatment is similar, except going in the opposite direction. A trans boy will develop all those features you find unattractive–tall, well-built, muscular, facial hair, deep voice, muscle mass . . . the whole smash.

            This is the future of trans. What you are describe are the remnants of an age when people were ignorant of trans issues. With continued medical progress, in the next decade or two using techniques that are currently being perfected, trans people will be able to bear their own biological children and the last of your concern will be addressed.

            Trans boys will be raised as boys, go through male puberty, be able to father children and live as men.

            Trans girls will be raised as girls, go through female puberty, be able to bear children and live as women.

            It may be a Brave New World with much of it already here, but shouting about it will not change the fact the medicine is addressing this population in a compassionate and proactive way.

          11. “first off no transgirl would ever date you anyways
            this isnt meant as offense we do strive by orientation so no transgirl is going to be comfortable dating someone whos attracted to guys”

            Was that paragraph supposed to make sense or any type of new point?!

            “my issue is you seem to act as if everyone dates ppl based on biologic sex and that is not even remotely true most ppl do date based on gender identity”

            I’m not acting like anything. You keep repeating yourself as if saying the same BS over and over will somehow make it become true. It won’t. Why don’t you provide links from credible non-pro-trans sources that support your claims??? You won’t do so because you can’t. You can’t because there are none.

            Most people still do not understand that gender and biological sex are not the same things. Most people say gender but what they actually mean is biological sex. When it comes to primary sex organs, they have everything to do with biological sex and nothing to do with gender identity. If you’re going to try and claim that most people don’t care about what primary sex organs their potential partner has, then you are even more full of BS than I already knew about.

            When it comes to dating apps, biological sex and sexual orientation, are the primary/first categories that people choose from. When it comes to online porn, biological sex is the primary/first categories that people choose from. Millions of people around the world consume porn every day. They choose what turns them on. Most sites have a “tranny” category because only some people are interested in that. They have no categories based on gender identity. If the BS you keep claiming were true, both porn sites and dating apps/sites, would not categorize as they do.

            “idc if you want to break up due to an orientation dillema but please no altimations and do it friendly and supportively”

            That and the sentences right before it, make no sense to me. I have no idea what you’re trying to communicate but I’m sure that whatever you’re trying to say, is just something else that I do not agree with.

            “also im asuming your a guy as it says guy in your name how do you expect to date a straight guy?”

            Again, what the hell are you talking about?!?! I’m not gay. I don’t date guys. I onyl date biological women.

            “my biology means nothing to me but a birth defect im fully a girl in every way that matters to me”

            That’s your right to think/feel that way. But again, you do not have the right to tell anyone else what should matter to them when it comes to their romantic interests in their lives. You don’t want to think about your biological sex. That does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. You can’t force anyone to ignore your biological sex and just focus on your gender identity.

            Nature designed the majority of human beings to lust over, feel attracted to, desire to have sex with, people of the opposite biological sex. It is natural. Sexual attraction is not just something that makes us feel good. The primary reason for sex is to reproduce. Gender identity doesn’t create new life. Biological sex does.

          12. the fact you cant comprehend what i typed says to me that you cant properly read ill admit i dont type well but i type well enough for it to be read
            your just a lost cause who fails to understand reality stuck inside your narrow minded skull
            dont reply unless your willing to come out of your narrow minded self
            i am a girl in every way that matters that is the truth but clearly you dont have the mental capacity to understand that

          13. Virgina, if you want to “thank” me for taking the time to respond to your reply, then why not do so by actually addressing my entire post?! You replied with a long post, harping on just one single issue and ignored everything else. I can guess why you did that.

            “Your essentialist view of trans people is out of date.”

            Once again, you are mistaken. There is nothing out of date about the fact that a transgender woman, is a biological male. That is the reason why they are transgender. That is the definition of transgender. If you are trans, you will always be trans. Your words will not change that fact. Today, most trans women, do not pass very well at all. Whether it is the voice or the looks, most of us can tell that someone is trans. We just don’t say so because there is no need to. I see a lot of trans people here in the Los Angeles area. I treat them no different than I treat biological women/men. The only difference in treatment is when it comes to dating. Again, I, like many other straight men, do not have an interest in dating trans women. No amount of words spoken, will ever change that for me and many people like me.

            There is nothing out of date about the fact that less than 1/3 of trans people ever undergo SRS. Again, that means most trans women have a penis duct taped under that dress. There is nothing out of date about the fact that most of us straight men have NO desire to have a sexual relationship with someone who has a penis. The lack of interest in that will NEVER change no matter how much you wish it would become no big deal. ItIS a big deal! A very big deal and NO is not shallow. Sex organs were created for reproducing and for sexual pleasure. Human beings love sex. Yet today we live in a world where selfish trans people, are trying to demand that society should just get over their sex organs and be with them despite not having,/being what they desire. Complete BS!

            “Modern clinical studies and peer reviewing published finding are taking us in a very different direction from the one that you describe. ”

            What you don’t seem to comprehend is that I know far more about the science than you do. You don’t realize just how foolish you sound because you don’t know what I know.

            Almost 90-years ago, the first transgender sex organ transplant was attempted. Lili Elbe, a trans woman, wanted to be able to give birth. Her 2nd organ transplant attempt killed her in 1931. Since then, almost 90-years later, the medical sciences community has still not been able to successfully transplant sex organs.

            Last year the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio, tried and failed at the first U.S. uterus transplant into a real biological woman. In other words, the medical science community is still trying to figure out how to successfully transplant sex organs into biological women. Doing so with biological women vs transgender women is very different. A trans woman does not have any of the other organs necessary. That means a transgender woman would need to undergo many seriously complicated surgeries in order to give them the ability to give birth like a biological woman. Medical science is not 10-years away from that as you suggest.

            “Mostly you are describing people who have not been diagnosed and treated when they are young.”

            No! I’m describing the majority of the less than 1 million trans people we have here in the U.S. You are also incorrect in assuming that most trans kids are starting HRT very early. What you are doing is claiming that kids are doing today, what you wish you could have done as a kid. The data does not support your claims. Most trans people are still beginning HRT after puberty. Some are starting after age 18 because their parents would not allow them to do so earlier so they end up waiting until it is their choice.

            Regardless of what a trans person looks like (how well the “pass”), the fact remains that they are NOT the biological sex that they present themselves to be. You see to believe that as long as trans people look like the sex they want to be, then they are the same thing as being that sex. That is simply not reality. If you pass well, you can navigate through life without anyone other than your doctor knows the truth about your biological sex. However, again, when it comes to sexual relationships, that truth should know and or will become known at some point. And that truth will still matter to the majority (as in most but not 100%) of people anywhere in the world.

            “The garish stereotypes you describe are people who did not get the right endocrine treatment early enough.”
            Most trans people have not and still do not start HRT before puberty. Furthermore, secondary sex characteristics begin to take shape, just a few years after birth. When you see a 5 to 10-year old girl, you can see that she looks like a girl. Why do you suppose that is?!?! Also, HRT started at any age, will not give a trans girl, female sex organs. she will still have male sex organs.

            “A trans girl will develop wide hips like any female and will develop breasts like any typical girl. She fill not develop the jaw line to which you refer nor will she have male hair patterns.”

            That is simply not a statement of fact. There is NO way to know exactly how HRT will impact any human being at any given age. HRT works better for some and not as well for others.

            “A trans boy will develop all those features you find unattractive–tall, well-built, muscular, facial hair, deep voice, muscle mass . . . the whole smash.”

            Same comment I just made above. And again, a trans boy, will not have a penis and testicles. So NO, they will not have “the whole smash.” They will still be biologically female. do you have any idea what SRS is like for a trans man??? It’s even worse than what SRS does for a trans woman. A trans man who undergoes SRS is given a fake penis which is basically a dildo wrapped in real skin. The type that is meant to simulate an erection, does so by way of a manual air pump within the fake testicles. Just insanely pitiful.

            “This is the future of trans. What you are describe are the remnants of an age when people were ignorant of trans issues.”

            Your words are as false as you are. You’re talking in circles, making broad generalized statements. The future of trans is not trans people being the biological sex they wish they had been born as. The future of trans is not society waking up one day and deciding that there is no difference between dating a trans woman and dating a biological woman.

            “Trans boys will be raised as boys, go through male puberty, be able to father children and live as men.”
            “Trans girls will be raised as girls, go through female puberty, be able to bear children and live as women.”

            That may or may not be possible someday in the future as in 30, 50 or more years from now. That is not happening within 10-years as you suggested. Here, in reality, today, trans women can not give birth because they do not any of the sex organs required. Trans men can not seed birth because they can not produce sperm. That is reality today and tomorrow. But you are more than welcome to hold on to the idea that it’s all just around the corner, just like transgender Lili Elbe believed 90-years ago.

            “It may be a Brave New World with much of it already here, but shouting about it will not change the fact the medicine is addressing this population in a compassionate and proactive way.”

            Do you really not comprehend what my argument here has been about?!?! The definition of transgender is today, what it was yesterday. No matter what medical science has been able to do, the fact about biological sex, remain today just as they were yesterday. Natural vs simulated. Why on earth would I or anyone, want to choose simulated over natural when natural is everywhere as in 98% of the human population?!

          14. Hello Malibu Guy,
            Maybe you aren’t reading the links, but many others are reading the, and in the absence of any rebuttal, they will not support your assertions.

          15. Virginia, you’re making it more and more clear that you are just another trans person full of BS. I’ve learned that most trans people can be very dishonest and downright shady.

            I did not bother clicking on your link. Why should I? To see examples of trans people that don’t look trans?!?! You keep forgetting what the central point is within my argument: 1) A trans woman is not and will not ever be a biological woman. 2) Most of us are not interested in dating/having sexual contact with trans people because we are only attracted to people who are the opposite biological sex. I don’t care what bathroom trans people use. I don’t care where they live and work. Trans people, as far as I’m concerned, can do whatever they choose to do with themselves. I’m just not interested in ever having a sexual relationship with a trans woman. I love pussy! I love sex! I love biological women. I’m in my mid-20s and I plan to get married and have biological children. What I want in a woman, a transgender woman could never give me.

          16. this comment proves to me you know absolutly nothing about trans ppl in any way shape or form and refuse to accept reality and rather sit in your black and white world and think every has to be just like you

            you need to grow up theres no place in a civilised society for bigotry such as yourself
            i know what i am i know who i am you do not nor do you have any grounds to say
            i am a girl and thats the end this conversation is done you are nothing but another uneducated bigot who refuces to see reality

          17. Kirstin, you’re full of BS. There really is no better way to say it. I’ve posted links and spoken about medical science facts. You have no argument so you respond with nothing but weak personal attacks. You have the articulation of a 13-year old child. Combined with your lack of honesty, equals nothing more than bitter words by a bitter person.

            Again, you are welcome to have whatever personal opinion of yourself as you’d like. However, I and the rest of the world, are not required to subscribe to the BS you keep spitting out. You are a biological male. No amount of BS you keep spitting out is going to ever be able to change that medical science fact. You are not a biological woman and that is why you are transgender. There is a huge difference no matter how many times you claim there is not.

            You have XY sex chromosomes just like me and almost all other biological males. You have a male prostate. You were born with male primary organs just like me and almost all other biological males. You have the ability to produce sperm but not the ability to give birth, just like me and almost all other biological males.

            The thoughts you have in your brain, do not negate the physical body you were born with. Reality is not what you claim it to be. But hey, you’re more than welcome to keep living on fantasy island. It’s your life.

          18. you posted links full of nothing but bs you have no argument you have no say in who or what i am cause your not me i am a girl plain and simple
            your nothing more then a worthless bigot to say otherwise your a nobody its time you grow up and out of your retarded fantasy world
            theres no point arguing your minds to narrow to accept reality

            https://pastebin.com/7HFYenfW

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4657830/transgender-women-born-boys-babies-NHS-doctors.html

            http://www.amsa.org/advocacy/action-committees/gender-sexuality/transgender-health/

            i can go on all day about links teaching about transgender but your mind is clearly to narrow to read anything truthful
            i am a girl and thats all that matters you have no place to say otherwise so this convo ios done you are nothing but another brainless bigot grow up or gtf out i know alot more then youll ever dream about knowing

          19. Hello kirstin TransGirl

            There have been some positives and I try to stay focused on that.

            #1. The article above speaks for itself and it is published in a forum affiliated with a prestigious university.

            #2. Awareness of trans issues is increased and it is nothing to fear.

            #3. Other links and resources are referenced and the word gets out and spreads.

            #4. Some people may be uncomfortable because trans people exist, but it does not diminish the first three points.

            Medical science is making advances and the biological roots of trans-ness are being understood and that is accelerating. Theories of a half century ago that being trans is a mental illness have been all bit discarded, just like being gay used to be considered a mental illness in need of a “cure.”

            I am heartened. I transitioned in my 20s, the whole smash, during the 1970s and we have come very far very fast. Surgical techniques and HRT and other therapies have made transition better and easier. That the Dutch protocol is being widely used is also heartening for it spares trans youth from having to go through two puberties. Moreover the psychological outcomes are as good as, if not better, than for the control group for trans youth who are raised in their gender of affirmation.

            I have been in contact with some leading edge medical technology groups who have perfected ways of allowing both cis and trans women to give birth to their own biological children for those who wish it. At this stage in my life, my 70s, I would not be a candidate nor would I wish to be, but it is fascinating to see how far medical technology has progressed.

            A new generation is coming up who are not either shocked nor surprised that trans people exist. We have always existed and there have always been accounts about us: Christine Jorgensen in the 1950s. April Ashley in the 1960s, Renee Richards in the 1970s. This is nothing new. There are even accounts of trans people in Rome in the 2nd century. What is new is that people are understand it better. And there is earlier intervention. The sensationalist and negative attitudes these three pioneers, and others such as Sandy Stone or Jan Morris faced, have shifted. It is getting better and articles like the one above help people understand that there is nothing to fear and that some people are born this way and it’s okay.

            The gender genie is out of the bottle and it is unlikely it will ever get stuffed back in.

          20. youve said what ive been saying for a while its def not new just more accepted its facing its last fight tbh but the last fight is always the biggest in civil rights cases

          21. Hello MalibuGuy,
            So she’s a “man?” And where did you do to medical school, doctor? When did you give her the physical exam? Only a quack would a diagnosis without examining the patient.

          22. Virginia, you may not realize it but most people are a lot smarter than you give them credit for as you try to manipulate the facts as if nobody can see right through the games that you’re playing.

            “Maybe you aren’t reading the links, but many others are reading the, and in the absence of any rebuttal, they will not support your assertions.”

            You said that you posted links to some trans girls that don’t look trans. How exactly does that not support the points that I made??? I stated that a transgender woman is a biological male. That is what makes her transgender. It is the definition of transgender. I also stated that most trans people, do not pass very well. You can go to YouTube and see some of the most “passable” trans women and yet they still have voices that sound like biological males.

            I also stated that you are incorrect that within 10-years from now, trans women will be able to give birth. I also stated that most straight biological men such as myself, have no desire to date or have sexual contact with any trans women.

            Again, how do your links negate anything that I’ve stated? It is you who ignored everything I wrote and focused in on a single sentence and then went on to make assumptions about that single sentence.

            I would never date a trans woman because I am only interested in being with a biological woman. Because of people like you, I most likely will never consider even being friends with a transgender woman because almost all of my experiences (communication) both on and offline with trans women, has resulted in shady BS and straight up dishonesty. I have no interest in having anything to do with dishonest people.

          23. and everybody is alot smarter then you
            your just to narrow minded to see reality my genitalia does not define who i am
            i am a girl and no mentally retarded bigot such as yourself is going to tell me otherwise i know who i am you do not so grow the fk up

          24. “and everybody is alot smarter then you
            your just to narrow minded to see reality my genitalia does not define who i am
            i am a girl and no mentally retarded bigot such as yourself is going to tell me otherwise i know who i am you do not so grow the fk up”

            LOL!!!! Again, you really might want to consider using a spelling and grammar checker. While stating how smart everyone is compared to me, you incorrectly used “then” instead of “than.” And then you incorrectly used “your” instead of “you’re.”

            You’re a “girl” by way of your gender identity. You are male by way of your biological sex. Again, gender is WHO you are and your biological sex is WHAT you are. But hey, you’re more than welcome to keep living on fantasy island while the rest of live here in reality.

            Since you’re so wise and I’m so clueless, why don’t you explain to the class, what is the definition of a transgender woman??? What makes you trans rather than non-trans???

            You, Virginia, and other trans “women” love to claim that the world is “not so black and white.” You complain about labels and what you think is wrong with what you consider to be outdated thinking. The irony in all of that is that it is you trans women that spend your time trying to become as close to as possible, an old world label.

            You try to behave like biological women in every way you are able to. You say society is wrong and needs to change yet all you do is mimic every aspect of the traditional label that belongs to biological women. You don’t wear makeup and wear dresses because it’s in your DNA. You do so because it’s what you see biological women doing. You walk into a women’s bathroom and sit on a dirty toilet seat to pee with your penis rather than peeing with your penis standing up because biological women don’t stand to pee.

            Everything you do is to mimic biological women. In other words, you have surrendered your life to black and white labels and you don’t even realize it. Worst of all, the labels you apply to yourself, are labels that you will never fully be able to own because, at the end of the day, you are not a biological female.

          25. As an M2F transwoman, I respond to advertising and the way that I see people dressing and behaving in the world as if I am a woman. I’ve had to learn how to live as a man, but it’s far easier to do things as a woman. And the way the world works is that the gender that you belong to is the one that you will pick up the cues for.

            I wear makeup because I like to look pretty, and I like to look pretty because societies expectations of women is that they will look pretty. I buy nice clothes because I like the look and feel of them, and how I feel while I’m wearing them. Pretty much the same answer as you’d get from a cis-woman.

            I’ve struggled with the fact that I will never be able to have children, the same as many other women have struggled in the same way. This is because this is WHO I am. I am a woman. I don’t do things to mimic people that were Assigned Female At Birth, I do things because I am a woman, despite being Assigned Male At Birth.

            The reason that I’m transgender is because someone looked at a piece of my anatomy when I was born and Assigned me as Male on my birth certificate.

            I also note that you’ve been responding to kirstin TransGirl, while ignoring the questions that I’ve posed to you. Is this because you’re big on arguing about what’s wrong with other peoples posts, but not so big on answering the difficult questions?

          26. “I don’t do things to mimic people that were Assigned Female At Birth, I do things because I am a woman, despite being Assigned Male At Birth.”

            Most people (98%) of us, were not just “assigned” male or female at birth. We are biologically male or female at birth and will remain so for our entire lives. You can’t negate something simply by using specific words to describe it. That is part of the transgender narrative that is so annoyingly pitiful.

            “The reason that I’m transgender is because someone looked at a piece of my anatomy when I was born and Assigned me as Male on my birth certificate.”

            Please! Enough with the transgender PR and PC BS! Nobody knows the reason why you are trans. But what it means to be trans, by definition, is that you are a biological male with a female gender identity within your mind. That is reality and remains so even after you try to twist and minimize the fact.

            “I also note that you’ve been responding to kirstin TransGirl, while ignoring the questions that I’ve posed to you”

            Oh, is that right?! What questions have you asked me? Every reply to me, I have responded to. I have not and do not plan on reading every last comment made here. I read some of them and responded to some of them. From there it has been me responding to people who have hit reply to my comments.

            “Is this because you’re big on arguing about what’s wrong with other peoples posts, but not so big on answering the difficult questions?”

            LOL!! What are you talking about? What questions have you addressed to me???

          27. Almost forgot – regarding doing things to mimic biological women: A transgender woman who has a penis, walks into a women’s bathroom to pee. Public bathrooms are designed for biological sex more so than for gender. That is why men’s bathrooms have urinals and women’s bathrooms do not. We all know that if you have a penis, the cleanest and fastest way to pee is to do so standing up. To sit on a public toilet to pee, as an owner of a penis, is all about the phycology of doing things the way biological women do them. Really, you can try to spin and twist it all day long but we both know what the truth is.

          28. @MalibuGuy part 1 & 2 & remember

            Part II

            As for you argument that we want people to focus on gender to the exclusion of sex. This is untrue. We want all social aspects of society to focus on Gender and not Sex, and only the medically necessary things to focus on Sex, e.g. things that care about whether you have an y chromosome rather than a x, or some genetic abnomality that means that you have both. Especially given that advances in medical science will soon mean that transwomen could be given a female reproductive system and Transmen a male reproductive system. The reason for this is that things like prostate cancer, testicular cancer, cervical cancer, etc. can affect anyone with those particular features, and while currently it’s not been possible to clone and implant one for anyone that didn’t already have one, that doesn’t mean it’s going to be true forever.

            As for transphobia and not dating trans-people. The argument is usually you’re transphobic if you state that you are not attracted to trans-people, as usually attraction comes before dating, and requires you know something about a person that you couldn’t possibly know. Having a preference for a certain body type, or genitals that most trans people don’t meet, is generally considered fine though. Out of interest, do you also care about whether a woman that you’re thinking about dating can have kids or not?

            Re: Marriage – I live in the UK, and I’ve not seen anything about having to notify your partner that you are transgender if you’ve received a gender recognition certificate (i.e. you are transgender in the eyes of the law). However with all such things, if you haven’t received one of those then you will be legally married/enter a civil partnership (or barred from civil partnership) based on your legal gender. In existing marriages, being Transgender is a voidable condition assuming that you were not transgender when the marriage started. And prior to 2014, you couldn’t get a recognition certificate without divorcing.

            I disagree with your assertion that most people are attracted to other people based on their sex, because unless they are looking at someone that’s naked, they have no way to determine what that is. Instead, everyone – including you uses a system of attractors and detractors that take into account things like how big their forehead is, how square their chin is, how they walk, what secondary sexual characteristics they’ve got, how they dress, even what haircut they have. Or are you telling me that you actually fall in love with vaginas?

            And, no it’s called sexuality because it’s the sort of person you want to have sex with, rather than because of their genitals. The fact that the two match up nearly 99% of the time is why your getting confused, gay men are attracted to people that look like men, and lesbians are attracted to people that look like women. Whether that persons specific genitals is an issue is something that comes later, and in our current society is often a turn-off once they’re known (and in the case of men, can lead to unwarranted violence). But here’s another thing that’s also fairly specific to men (and more than one older trans person has told me about having this experience), when they’re originally told that the person is trans, they say that they understand and continue to date the person until they get them into bed, at which point they’re shocked and upset to find out something they were told before. But equally it’s also men that won’t leave women alone even if they’re a lesbian, saying things like how do you know if you’ve never had a man? Given that you don’t hear about the same dogged determination as a common thing from straight women coming onto gay men (or even just uninterested men), I wonder what’s to blame on that one?

            It’s also interesting that you list a whole host of things that mean that sex sells – when it’s actually not whether the person has specific genitals, but whether they have specific characteristics that are strongly associated with members of a certain gender. Only one of those things in your list cares about what genitals someone has – porn, and guess what, statistics would suggest that actually straight men like transpeople sexually ( http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/27/transgender-porn-quickly-growing-in-popularity.html http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/why-trans-porn-hugely-popular-among-hetero-men#14999558126822&action=expand_widget&id=0&data= )

            Finally, as for mimicking womens behaviour in the toilet. I’ve been sitting down to pee for longer than I’ve known what transgender is and means, let alone accepting that I am transgender. This is because I’ve got a very small penis (<1" flaccid) that sprays if I don't fiddle around with it at a urinal, so for the most part, unless I'm in a hurry (i.e. the seats in the loo aren't sanitary or someone else is using it) and willing to get pee on my trousers (or legs if I'm wearing shorts), it's actually quicker and more hygienic for me to sit down to pee.

          29. Part 1:

            “As for you argument that we want people to focus on gender to the exclusion of sex. This is untrue.”

            Right here in these comments, you can see at least one example that goes against what you’re claiming. Take a look at the posts to me, by Kirstin. Kirstin has made it very clear, over and over, that she thinks most people already focus more on gender rather than sex.

            “We want all social aspects of society to focus on Gender and not Sex, and only the medically necessary things to focus on Sex, e.g. things that care about whether you have an y chromosome rather than a x, or some genetic abnomality that means that you have both.”

            That is NEVER going to happen for all of the reasons that I’ve already explained several times. Also, notice how you left out key elements that come to mind for most people? You intentionally didn’t mention genitals even though you know good and well that is a HUGE part of why most straight cisgender people have no interest in being involved sexually/romantically with trans people. That is what I call just more shady trans behavior on your part. Most people do not even know what XY and XX sex chromosomes are. They only know the end results of chromosomes and that end result which you neglected to mention, happens to be all that most people care about.

            In stating what you want people to focus on and care about, did you even consider the reality that you don’t have the right to demand what other people care about?! You don’t get to dictate what people feel is important to them. All you can do is choose for yourself.

            Again, I’ve already been over all of this. We as human beings are very sexual creatures. We love sex. We love having sex. We love thinking about sex. We love getting ready to have sex. It is all in our nature to love sex. Nature designed us to love sex and the PRIMARY reason nature designed us to love sex is so that we would reproduce. Just think about that for a minute. If you were God/Mother Nature and you wanted your creations to multiply, what better way to ensure they that do other than to make sex very pleasurable, exciting and easy enough?!?! The point is that almost everything that we do in life, has a connection to having sex and all that is associated with sex. Again, that is why they say sex sells and why it dominates music, film, and TV still today.

            What would have happened if nature designed us to focus on gender rather than biological sex?! Right now, here in reality and within anytime in the past history of the world, it is NOT possible for a transgender woman to be with a biological male and create and give birth. That is why nature did not design us to lust for gender over biological sex.

            “Especially given that advances in medical science will soon mean that transwomen could be given a female reproductive system and Transmen a male reproductive system.”

            We’ve already been over all that here. Okay, you hold onto that hope. Good luck with that. Today, here, in reality, no such thing is possible. We are still trying to successfully allow biological women to have sex organs transplanted into them so that they can have a child. Here in the U.S. the Cleveland Clinic tried last year and failed. You see, you may want to be the priority but you are not. The priority within the medical sciences community is to help biological women with issues, become able to give birth with donated organs and later on, created organs. We are not there yet. We will not be there in 10-years from yet some of you trans people believe that in 10-years from now, transwomen will be able to have all of the needed sex organs, transplanted into them. Again, good luck with that.

            “The reason for this is that things like prostate cancer, testicular cancer, cervical cancer, etc. can affect anyone with those particular features, and while currently it’s not been possible to clone and implant one for anyone that didn’t already have one, that doesn’t mean it’s going to be true forever. ”

            This is me again not understanding whatever it is you think that you’re trying to say. Trans women have a male prostate. The risk in removing it along with SRS, are far too great to make it a wise choice to remove it. Risk your life and future health to remove something inside of you because the thought of it reminds you of your biological sex?! Nutty and truly SAD!!!!! The human body is NOT a damn lego set. You can’t just mix and match pieces with no complications and risks. Reality just doesn’t work that way. Have you not done your research on SRS? Why do you think MOST trans people do NOT choose to undergo SRS??? SRS can and does for many, lead to all kinds of nasty conclusions. And that is just one sex organ that is mostly external. Some transwomen who undergo SRS to create a “neovagina” end up losing ALL sex drive for LIFE! Google it! Most have to deal with infections and bad odors caused by said infections. A neovagina is just a hole that is meant to simulate a real vagina. It is NOT a vagina. It can not self-lubricate like a real vagina does when aroused. Again, that is just one external sex organ that is meant just to simulate the real thing and still it is far from perfect with lots of problems.

            “As for transphobia and not dating trans-people. The argument is usually you’re transphobic if you state that you are not attracted to trans-people, as usually attraction comes before dating, and requires you know something about a person that you couldn’t possibly know. Having a preference for a certain body type, or genitals that most trans people don’t meet, is generally considered fine though.”

            What you might want to know is that most of us really do NOT care whether or not the LGBTQ community considers us to be transphobic with regards to dating. If you’re having that argument then you’re having it alone because really, most of us really do not care. You may not agree with it but to most of us, it is no different than us not wanting to be with a cisgender gay guy. I have the EXACT same feelings/reaction to the idea of being with a trans woman as I do about being with a cisgender male gay or straight. Why it’s all the same is because again, biological sex is what comes first when it comes to what we are attracted to. A transwoman, a straight cisgender male and a gay cisgender male, are ALL biologically MALE! Boobs, hair, makeup and womens clothes, may make some trans women look like biological females but it does not make them biological females.

            “Out of interest, do you also care about whether a woman that you’re thinking about dating can have kids or not?”

            Most guys who want to have kids, of course, care about that. Regardless, being able to have kids is not the only thing that matters to most of us. The REASON WHY someone can or can not have kids is also what matters a great deal.

            “Re: Marriage – I live in the UK, and I’ve not seen anything about having to notify your partner that you are transgender if you’ve received a gender recognition certificate”

            Google is your friend. Perhaps you should do more research rather than so much talking. Furthermore, I’m going to guess that just like other trans people who have posted here, that you have no shame in hiding your biological sex (if you are able to). That to me is just more trans shady BS! You don’t get to decide what is okay for someone else. It is selfish to try and assume that you know what is best for anyone else just because you want what you want. You know good and well that most people care about biological sex and if you choose to hide that from any potential date, then you are just sick and very wrong! Period!

            As far as the law in the UK:

            https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3b5x4n/should-trans-people-have-to-disclose-their-birth-gender-before-sex

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trans-people-could-face-rape-charges-if-they-don-t-declare-sexual-history-warns-trans-activist-a7076546.html

            https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3b5x4n/should-trans-people-have-to-disclose-their-birth-gender-before-sex

            “I disagree with your assertion that most people are attracted to other people based on their sex, because unless they are looking at someone that’s naked, they have no way to determine what that is.”

            I’ve already talked way too much about sexual attraction and so my prior comments already address this comment of yours. Furthermore, you are talking about false pretense. Some women are attracted to men with a lot of money. If a woman meets a guy that she thinks is wealthy and begins dating him, lusting over him, etc., and then finds out that it was all a lie and that the guy is really broke, that is a false pretense. You, like many other trans people, sadly, have this idea that as long as you can fool people into believing something then it might as well be as good as true. That shady BS works in other areas of life but not in intimate situations such as romance/sex. Just because a guy (who could even be me) looks at a trans woman, doesn’t know that she’s trans and therefore thinks that she is really hot; is NOT a case for people being attracted to gender rather than sex. Do you really not see that??? It’s so sad how far off into the deep end trans people can be in their logic. Just sad as hell!

            “Instead, everyone – including you uses a system of attractors and detractors that take into account things like how big their forehead is, how square their chin is, how they walk, what secondary sexual characteristics they’ve got, how they dress, even what haircut they have. Or are you telling me that you actually fall in love with vaginas?”

            LOL!!!! There is no need for me to respond to any of that but here I am doing so anyway. You really aren’t paying attention and or you just have a hard time with comprehension. When I see a woman, I assume she is a biological female (more than 99.9% of all women in the U.S. are not trans). I assume she is a biological female UNLESS something were to catch my eye (or ears) and send up a red flag. So, no, I’m not consciously thinking about the various features of her face and body, trying to analyze them. YOU as a trans person, are busy thinking about those things, wondering how well you pass. We don’t have the same fears and thoughts that trans people have.

            You already know that people don’t fall in love with a vagina. We fall in love with a person. Falling in love and having the desire to have sex with someone, do not and often don’t go hand in hand. We can meet someone and want to have sex with them without even knowing them. That is part of sexual desire. Again, a transwoman “passing” very well and getting a random guy to want to sleep with her, does NOT equal “oh see that guy can be attracted to gender.” The guy was FOOLED!!!!!! Try letting the guy know right away that the hot woman he is looking at, is really not a biological female and then see how that plays out. Yes, some guys would still be down to hook up or maybe even date that transgender woman, but my same point is that MOST of us would not be willing to hook up or date someone we knew was trans, NO MATTER how good they looked and like a biological woman.

            “And, no it’s called sexuality because it’s the sort of person you want to have sex with, rather than because of their genitals. The fact that the two match up nearly 99% of the time is why your getting confused, gay men are attracted to people that look like men, and lesbians are attracted to people that look like women. ”

            Sex·u·al·i·ty:
            “a person’s sexual orientation or preference.
            plural noun: sexualities
            “people with proscribed sexualities”
            synonyms: sexual orientation, sexual preference, leaning, persuasion;”

            The only person confused here is you. Sexual orientation. Do you really not understand what that means??? Gay men love dick! They think vaginas are nasty. No, really, ask them. Ask a gay man why he doesn’t like women and the answer in most cases have nothing to do with their minds. Many gay men are accused of being like women. Many gay men have plenty of female friends that they click with mentally. But when it comes down to it, what sexually turns them on is the male body AND male genitals. You can hold on to your opinions no matter how false they are. That’s your business. But please, do not try to tell me or anyone else, what turns us on and why. You just got done in another post, acknowledging that trans people want gender to win out over sex socially as well and yet here you are basically denying the reality of things now.

            Again, you seem like a very young person who has little experience with the real world outside of your mind. Furthermore, once again, the definition of homosexuality is described as desiring the same SEX aka the same biological sex. What, are you going to tell me that you’ve never met plenty of gay men that act, walk, talk, and dress like women?!?! Or that you’ve never seen gay women that act, walk, talk, and dress like men?!?! Do you really not see how that reality negates your logic?!?!

            When human beings lust/fantasize about sex, they imagine everything from the body to THE GENITALS!!! Have you ever been to a porn site?! Why do you think porn is broken down into categories like shemales/tranny, gay, etc??? Why do you think popular dating apps such as Tinder, had to change their app after a lot of trans women were being flagged after men found out they were trans? You’re clearly not in touch with reality.

            “Whether that persons specific genitals is an issue is something that comes later, and in our current society is often a turn-off once they’re known (and in the case of men, can lead to unwarranted violence).”

            It’s still shocking to see just how out of touch with reality so many of you trans people are. You refer to it as genitals but we both know it’s part of the whole package which is biological sex, words that transgender people never want to say. It should NOT come later. That is why it can lead to violence. Unwarranted you say?! The fact that it can lead to such an extreme reaction, is more than enough to let you know just what a big deal it is to the other person. Again, you already know most men are not interested and you also know that you don’t have the right to choose what is okay for other people. So what do you expect to have happen??? You think, hope that you can hide it long enough for the guy to just fall for you and then it just won’t matter anymore?!?! Come on back to earth! Everyone deserves to know BEFORE even a first date, what your biological sex is. Period! Choose anything else at your own risk.

          30. I’m going to be making two point.

            1) you specified in the post I responded to that trans people have to reveal that they are getting married, when I responded that I couldn’t find anything to support that you linked to articles discussing sexual assault. And even in those articles it said that they could face sexual assault charges, not that the would. This is because to date only one trans person has been convicted of this, and that is because they blindfolded their partner and then used dildos in place of a real penis. How exactly does this relate to the law on getting married in the UK?

            2) You have a predisposition to believe that we are all liars, and use belittling statements to reduce the validity of our arguments in your own eyes. As such I don’t believe that it is actually possible to have a reasonable debate with you as you are obviously suffering from the dunning kruger effect, and are dogmatically, and ideologically opposed to trans people in general. I believe that my arguments thus far will stand on their own for future readers, and with your contributions and your absolute refusal to move away from an outdated medical understanding of sex and gender. You also claim to have more knowledge about the area of discussion without ever revealing what gives you that knowledge or status, this is an appeal to authority of the worst sort.

          31. “1)” You have web access and the ability to use google. Use it research your countries laws. First enacted in the 1973 Matrimonial Causes Act and then in the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, it was reaffirmed.

            What makes this so revealing is the fact that so many pro-trans people are against having to reveal their biological sex to the person they claim to love and want to spend the rest of their lives with. The ONLY reason trans people are against this is that they fear how their partner will feel about them after learning the truth. Not revealing it, would result in a life of lies. Medical issues will arise and more lies will have to be told in order to keep the secret. What happens if the trans woman someday develops prostate cancer. Will she lie to her husband about what type of cancer she has?!?! There is no such thing as keeping big secrets forever. Sooner or later the truth comes to light.

            “2) You have a predisposition to believe that we are all liars”

            “You also claim to have more knowledge about the area of discussion without ever revealing what gives you that knowledge or status, this is an appeal to authority of the worst sort.”

            ” I believe that my arguments thus far will stand on their own for future readers, and with your contributions and your absolute refusal to move away from an outdated medical understanding of sex and gender. ”

            LOL!!!! You are more than welcome to continue living in denial. Your words do not equal truth and reality no matter how many times you state them. YES!!!! People who read the thread in the future will be able to see who is full of BS and who is not. Anyone reading this thread can see how you’ve managed to ignore all of the many points that I’ve made because you know that you have no valid argument against them.

            You now claim that my views on sex and gender are outdated. LOL!!! Outdated even though they come from current published data from very credible sources?!?! Right! The APA, GLAAD and many peer-reviewed sources, are all in agreement about biological sex and gender today, yet somehow they are all outdated according to you and other trans people who don’t like what your biological sex is.

            As I’ve stated elsewhere, no matter what you call it (biological sex or otherwise), there are two groups and ALL people belong to ONE of those two groups (excluding people with an intersex condition). Almost ALL transgender people belong to one of those two groups. That IS the key part of the definition of transgender. Those two groups are known as biological male and biological female. No matter what anyone considers to be biological sex now or tomorrow, those two groups will ALWAYS exist. There will always be human beings born with the ability to seed birth or give birth. And most of humanity will always have the desire to be with ONE or the group as a matter of natural desire that can’t be twisted any more than words could be twisted to make a gay person straight.

            You can dance around it all day and night but we both know that ONLY reason you and other trans people have such an issue with biological sex is because it excludes you from a group that you’d very much like to belong to.

          32. Yay, more ad hominem arguments from you, complete with a lack of supporting evidence, strawman arguments, and appeal to authority. Any more logical fallacies you want to add, as I’m only missing a couple from your articles before I’ve got a full house.

            Btw, for the article in question, all of your arguments fall foul of the false premise fallacy

          33. “Yay, more ad hominem arguments from you, complete with a lack of supporting evidence, strawman arguments, and appeal to authority. Any more logical fallacies you want to add, as I’m only missing a couple from your articles before I’ve got a full house. Btw, for the article in question, all of your arguments fall foul of the false premise fallacy”

            That right there, ladies and gentlemen, is the trans “woman” gameplay at work. You’re once again, talking in circles, not making any points and about anything specific. Around nearly every corner, you’ve been schooled and that is exactly why you’ve failed to argue against nearly all of the many points that I’ve made.

            You’re actually trying to discredit something that you clearly know nothing about. Something that as a trans person in the UK, you should have already well educated yourself on. Seriously ridiculous just how clueless you are while you pretend to be so knowledgeable.

            Again, that which takes place within your mind does not equal the reality the world lives outside of your thoughts, opinions, assumptions, and daydreams.

            A few days ago, you falsely accused me of ignoring your questions while I responded to Kirstin. I then asked you what questions did you ask me, that which I ignored. You had nothing. So while you’re busy making up fiction about me not being able to answer questions you claimed to have asked me, the reality is that it is you who can not respond to 90% of the content within the comments I’ve posted directly to you.

            Regardless, you can ignore and dodge the facts that I’ve presented and you can continue to talk in circles all day and night but the facts will remain: you are not a biological female because you are a biological male. When it comes to relationships or even the desire/lust over having sex with someone, most of us cisgender people, around the world, have ZERO desire to be with you or any other trans person because our natural desire is to seek out people that are of the opposite biological sex. That is the foundation of all arguments trans related.

          34. Part 2:

            “But here’s another thing that’s also fairly specific to men (and more than one older trans person has told me about having this experience), when they’re originally told that the person is trans, they say that they understand and continue to date the person until they get them into bed, at which point they’re shocked and upset to find out something they were told before. But equally, it’s also men that won’t leave women alone even if they’re a lesbian, saying things like how do you know if you’ve never had a man? Given that you don’t hear about the same dogged determination as a common thing from straight women coming onto gay men (or even just uninterested men), I wonder what’s to blame on that one?”

            That entire paragraph is nothing more than gibberish BS that sounds like it came from the mind of a child. What’s to “blame on that one” is your ill logic. There is no one size fits all! I don’t care what someone told you. Trans people lie. A LOT! I’m not willing to take the word of what trans people claim happened/happens. Also, I can not speak for every last cisgender man on earth. I can only speak for myself and for all of the men I do know. I would never beat up a trans person but if somehow I got to know a trans person and didn’t know they were trans until sometime later, I would be very angry, and I would just walk away from that as quickly as possible and never look back. I can say that it’s a very good guess that the same could be said about just about every guy I know.

            “But equally it’s also men that won’t leave women alone even if they’re a lesbian, saying things like how do you know if you’ve never had a man? ”

            What you’re saying is neither here nor there. In other words, who cares?! What does that have to do with anything related to the subject at hand?!?!?! Furthermore, it sounds like you’re really just making something up based on a stereotype you’ve imagined, seen on TV and or heard about once before. Here in the U.S. in my social circle, that is not something that happens often at all. And if it were to happen, what does it have to do with men not wanting to have sex with someone who has a penis?!

            “It’s also interesting that you list a whole host of things that mean that sex sells – when it’s actually not whether the person has specific genitals, but whether they have specific characteristics that are strongly associated with members of a certain gender. Only one of those things in your list cares about what genitals”

            Do you just invent your own brand of logic or are you seriously that clueless?! You really have no idea what you’re talking about. Again, perception and expectations! When we men see a hot girl on TV in a bikini, we don’t consider her gender because we assume that she is a biological female. We assume ALL hot looking females are biological females. Good Lord!

            You are so filled with BS I have to ask myself why I continue to take the time to reply. Sex sells! The idea of sex sells. The idea of sex is that the person you are looking at, is exactly what you want; a hot biological female with a real VAGINA! If a trans girl looks hot and models or does commercials, she will have the same impact on men just as long as the men don’t know that they are looking at a trans woman. To you trans people, you actually think that is some kind of a win. It’s not! It’s not because it’s not REAL! Fooling someone into thinking something that is not true or allowing them to assume something that you know is not true, is NOT equal to it being true!!!

            “porn, and guess what, statistics would suggest that actually straight men like transpeople sexually”

            Please! Enough with your BS! From the article you linked (how long did it take you to hunt that down?!): “The GameLink data is intriguing, but by no means scientific. To date, no other online porn company has revealed statistical data about the transgender viewing habits of its customers.”

            Also, the article stated: “Perhaps even more surprising than the numbers is who’s watching it. California and New York were the top two states—accounting for 17.6 and 7.3 percent of transgender porn sales on GameLink last year. Not a big surprise, given the generally liberal leanings of both states. And Illinois’ entry at No. 3—with 5.6 percent—may not surprise some people.

            But the fourth-biggest consumer of transgender porn is Texas, making up 5 percent of the GameLink market. And Arizona is fifth at 4.9 percent.”

            What their data indicates is that the porn consumed through just ONE porn company, suggests that in the two biggest states, CA and NY, less than 10% of consumed porn in those states, is trans porn. In the other states with the most consumed porn from that one company, less than 5% consumed porn in those states, is trans porn. What the data doesn’t tell you is how many of those trans porn viewers are straight, gay, or bisexual. In the U.S. Regardless, that data indicates that 90% and more, of all of their porn viewership, is NOT for trans porn. I’ve said dozens of times by now that “most” of us have ZERO interest in anything sexual having to do with trans people. 90% (even 75%) is considered “most.” So tell, what point do you think the article makes for you, that which negates anything that I’ve stated?

            “it’s actually quicker and more hygienic for me to sit down to pee.”

            You’re full of BS, dude! There is nothing “hygienic” about coming into contact with a public toilet. You do it because sure it’s a habit by now but it’s not done because it’s natural to you. You do it because it’s what biological women with a vagina do. You do it because it makes you feel a little more like them and a little less like what you are biological.

            What I wrote to Kirtsin: ” A formed habit is not the same thing as being natural. Since the beginning of man, males have stood or kneeled to pee. Do you know what a chamber pot is? It would have been very difficult for someone like you with our logic, to have used one to pee sitting down.

            Again, if you know anything about potty training then you should understand that toilets are not meant to ever have a penis enter them. That’s not only just nasty, it is also not a very clean thing to do. But hey, it’s your body; do with it whatever you’d like to.”

          35. Hello MalibuGuy,

            We have to stop meeting like this or people will begin to talk.

            You are right. Girls follow female behavior–mimic is the word put forward–but then again, you mimic male behavior, or do you sit to pee?

            You asked about what makes a person realize they are trans. I’ll speak from personal experience. As toddlers (2-1/2 years old) I asserted I was assigned the wrong gender, so that’s what makes me “trans.” According to the aricle, likely the BSTC is female or i would not assert it.

            Today we are taken to specialists who determine if this is a sincere assertion. If the child is adamant about the “opposite” gender, letting the child express as the “opposite” gender is done on an experimental basis. If the child keeps insisting, then the trial periods might be extended up to and including full time so I can socialize as a female.

            If this continues into puberty, at the stage of Tanner 2, I would get puberty blockers. This is usually at 13/14 years of age. Puberty is put on hold and the unwanted puberty is stopped. I would be evaluated to make sure this is working for me and that there were no regrets. Believe me, there would be none in my case! In high school, I would continue with blockers and female socialization, cross-sex hormones, and at age 15/17 depending if I still felt this was the right path for me. I would then develop along natal female lines–hips widen, breasts develop, female shape, voice stays in female range, no male body hair. No feed for facial surgery, electrolysis, voice surgery, or breast augmentation. Height would be in female range. The fact that I was boy assigned at birth would have little influences socially, mentally, or physically although I would be barren, but then again, I have NO desire to make another girl pregnant and at 18 I can have surgery so regular sexual relations are possible either with a cis het guy, or if I am gay, with a lesbian, however I would roll.

            Again, I ask, other than the fact we were born trans instead of cis–no one is arguing otherwise–is there any reason not to transition, especially in light of the article above about the BSTc and gender identity? It seems silly to make someone be a boy who has the BSTc of a girl.

            No?

          36. @Virginia, Well said, and as an addition to that, think of all the money that will have been saved by not needing to treat an adult person that has the wrong body for their brain, including surgical intervention for the secondary sexual characteristics that developed due to going through the wrong puberty.

          37. “characteristics that developed due to going through the wrong puberty.”

            Your choice of words crafted to make it seem as if something is wrong with the body. The human body goes through its proper development. If anything, the brain or something in it is not right for the body. Your logic is exactly the reason for serious issues with transgender relations with cisgender people.

            You make it seem as if it’s possible to “correct” (transform) the biological sex of the human body from one to the other. In reality, it is not possible so are left with people in society that just don’t fit in because their desire is at war with reality and the war scars are almost always visible.

          38. @MalibuGuy – Re: “characteristics that developed due to going through the wrong puberty.”

            What do you think HRT, SRS, FFS, and the other treatments that trans people are offered are for exactly?

            Or are you still going to be adamant that transpeople are biologically _________ even when someone that was assigned male at birth is pregnant with either a donated womb or a cloned womb? (I’d include mentions of the fact that they can make sperm from people’s cells but you’d still argue that the transman doesn’t have testicles of their own).

            And I note that you’re only objecting to the idea that trans people (and the medical professionals that treat them) think that there is something wrong with their bodies.

            As a parallel, if you develop prostate cancer and it turns out you have a very high chance of it due to your genetics, are you going to avoid treatment because it’s the body you were born in?

          39. “What do you think HRT, SRS, FFS, and the other treatments that trans people are offered are for exactly?”

            Please don’t waste your time and mine, asking me stupid questions. They are offered for the exact reasons that the medical professionals state they are offered for. To help the transgender person ease some of their gender dysphoria suffering. To help them feel more comfortable in their body. That does not translate to “the wrong puberty.” LOL!!! You have no idea just how crazy stupid that sounds.

            “Or are you still going to be adamant that transpeople are biologically _________ even when someone that was assigned male at birth is pregnant with either a donated womb or a cloned womb?”

            Again, I don’t live in the future (and neither do you). Don’t ask me what I may or may not do someday when something may or may not ever happen. We are right here, in reality, today. However, to attempt to answer your silly question, you need only comprehend what the word biological means. It is of nature as in of a natural occurrence. Do you not understand the differences between natural and manufactured?!?! Again, you can not become a biological female if you were born as a biological male. You can’t go back in time and have nature redesign you.

            What you’re really asking is whether or not people like me would still refuse to accept trans women as being equal to biological women even if they could give birth. The answer to that question is YES I know without a doubt that I will never have any interest in dating/sleeping with or having any romantic involvement with a person that is not a biological female. Whether or not science figures out how to allow transwomen to give birth; does NOT result in them no longer being transwomen.

            “(I’d include mentions of the fact that they can make sperm from people’s cells but you’d still argue that the transman doesn’t have testicles of their own).”

            You’re talking about things that you have very little to no understanding of. I know far more about the subject than you do. It’s really pathetic to see you throw out whatever you can think of, not realizing that the person that you’re arguing with, understands much more than you do, the subject at hand.

            “And I note that you’re only objecting to the idea that trans people (and the medical professionals that treat them) think that there is something wrong with their bodies.”

            What in the world are you talking about or trying to say?! Where did I state that there is something wrong with trans people’s bodies?! A trans person body is 100% as it was designed to be as in one complete biological sex. The problem is that for reasons that the medical sciences community does NOT yet know/understand, with the minds of trans people, they feel as if that body is the wrong body, the wrong sex.

            “As a parallel, if you develop prostate cancer and it turns out you have a very high chance of it due to your genetics, are you going to avoid treatment because it’s the body you were born in?”

            LOL!! Another comment of yours that makes no sense to me. Perhaps I just don’t understand the context that these comments of yours belong to. Again, what is it that you’re trying to say? I’m again just going to assume that you are a very young person and that that is the reason for the talking in circles.

          40. “Hello MalibuGuy,
            We have to stop meeting like this or people will begin to talk.”

            I guess that’s transgender humor, lost on me.

            “You are right. Girls follow female behavior–mimic is the word put forward–but then again, you mimic male behavior, or do you sit to pee?”

            I stand to pee because that is what comes naturally to me as a biological male with a penis. Even in parts of the world where people do not have toilets, biological males stand to pee. There are gender habits and there are biological habits. They are not always one in the same and you know that. A transgender woman with a penis, walking into a women’s bathroom and sitting down to pee with her penis, is not naturally due to biological sex. It is done because the transgender woman knows that that is what biological females with vaginas do. Biological females sit down because it’s the only way to do so without peeing on themselves. All human beings, even as babies, will try to eat by using their hands to direct food into their mouth. That is biological instinct for both males and females. It is natural and easier for human beings to reach for food rather than to bring our mouth to the food like dogs and cats do.

            Sitting on a public bathroom toilet is not the cleanest way to pee with a penis. Matter of fact, the idea of a penis hanging down into the toilet, is just nasty. It’s potty training 101. Boys are taught to pee first and then sit down if you’re going to 2nd base. A penis should never go inside a toilet bowl.

            “You asked about what makes a person realize they are trans. I’ll speak from personal experience.”

            No! I did not ask you that question. Either you misread the question or my guess is that you didn’t want to answer the question I asked and or wanted the opportunity to tell part of your story. As I have come to understand, most trans people are very narcissistic. They seem to more often than not, assume that everyone wants to know their story. Everything is me, me, me.

            What I asked is what makes someone transgender as in what is the definition of being transgender?! Why is someone a transgender woman rather than just a woman?!

            “As toddlers (2-1/2 years old) I asserted I was assigned the wrong gender, so that’s what makes me “trans.””

            What makes you trans is that your biological sex and your gender identity do not match. You are not trans because someone made a mistake when you were born. It is just so absurd to claim to be something because someone “made a written mistake” when you were born. Doctors say gender but what they technically mean is biological sex. The sex of the baby. They say gender because, in our society, most people associate gender with sex even though gender can mean sex or several other things.

            A doctor can not know the gender identity of a newborn other than to guess based upon the fact that most people have a gender identity that matches their biological sex. Biological sex is easy enough to determine in 98% of all newborns because they are not intersex so we know that what’s between their legs is accurate (98% of the time).

            “If this continues into puberty, at the stage of Tanner 2, I would get puberty blockers. This is usually at 13/14 years of age.”

            You continue to describe the world in which you wish you had been raised in. Where are you getting your data from? Most trans children still do not grow up according to the plan that you’ve outlined. Sure that would be good for them but that’s not how it goes for most of them. Being transgender does not give you the right to just make up stats related to trans people. Also, have you forgotten just how many trans kids run away from home because their parents are not supportive of them wanting to transition?!?!?! Furthermore, many medical professionals do not agree with you. Some of them believe that children should wait because in some cases, the children grow out of it. Not everyone ends up like you. Did you know that there are some trans people who regret their transition and wish they could take back SRS? Yes, I know that is not the majority.

            Being such an educated trans person as you claim to be, I’m sure you know who Dr. John Money was and how he convinced a young boy by the name of David Reimer and his family, to transition the boy into a trans girl, who ended up committing suicide because he was not happy being a girl.

            “Believe me, there would be none in my case! In high school, I would continue with blockers and female socialization”

            Like I said, you’re talking about what you wish you would have done. That is neither here nor there. You’re daydreaming out loud.

            “I would then develop along natal female lines–hips widen, breasts develop, female shape, voice stays in female range, no male body hair. No feed for facial surgery, electrolysis, voice surgery, or breast augmentation. Height would be in female range.”

            While you’re busy daydreaming about what could have been, you’re also busy once again, making claims that are not medically factual and never 100% of the time. First of all, not all people respond to HRT the same way, no matter what age they begin. Either you don’t know these facts or you are just as dishonest as most other trans women seem to be. But then again, I think that was you who stated that you have no problem hiding your biological sex from dates.

            It’s as if you’re trying to sell me, whoever else is reading this, and or yourself, on your fantasy that drugs can transform a person from one biological sex to the other. No matter what a trans girl looks like, she is still a trans girl. She will never stop being trans even if she can “pass” very well and never talks about being trans. Trans is not just a thought. It is about your true biological development, that which begins 9-months before you enter the world.

            “Again, I ask, other than the fact we were born trans instead of cis–no one is arguing otherwise–is there any reason not to transition”

            A) You were not born trans instead of cis. There goes that trans wordplay BS again. You were born as a biological male. You are still a biological male. You will die as a biological male no matter what you make yourself look like.

            B) I NEVER stated any such thing about whether or not trans people should “transition.” You are manufacturing an argument to try and take the place of my actual argument. You’re talking about trans people should “transition.” I’m talking about the fact that trans women and biological women are not one in the same. I’m talking about the fact that a transgender woman, is a biological male, not a biological female. I’m talking about the fact that to most (I said most not all as in everyone) people anywhere on the planet when it comes to romance/sex/dating/marriage, care far more about biological sex than gender identity. Those are my arguments/points, those which have nothing to do with whether or not trans people should “transition.”

            “especially in light of the article above about the BSTc and gender identity? It seems silly to make someone be a boy who has the BSTc of a girl.”

            Again, there are NO conclusive data sets that indicate as a matter of medical science fact, that trans women have the same brains as biological women. The medical sciences community still does NOT know what exactly it is that are the constant differences between the brains of biological females and biological males. In other words, we still do NOT know whether there are really male and female brains other than the fact that a brain came from the body of a biological female or biological male.

            The so-called conclusions that you draw upon, are nothing more than pro-trans propaganda in reaching conclusions that the majority of the medical sciences community has not arrived at. Again:

            Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic

            Abstract

            “Whereas a categorical difference in the genitals has always been acknowledged, the question of how far these categories extend into human biology is still not resolved. Documented sex/gender differences in the brain are often taken as support of a sexually dimorphic view of human brains (“female brain” or “male brain”). However, such a distinction would be possible only if sex/gender differences in brain features were highly dimorphic (i.e., little overlap between the forms of these features in males and females) and internally consistent (i.e., a brain has only “male” or only “female” features).

            Here, analysis of MRIs of more than 1,400 human brains from four datasets reveals extensive overlap between the distributions of females and males for all gray matter, white matter, and connections assessed. Moreover, analyses of internal consistency reveal that brains with features that are consistently at one end of the “maleness-femaleness” continuum are rare. Rather, most brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males.

            Our findings are robust across sample, age, type of MRI, and method of analysis. These findings are corroborated by a similar analysis of personality traits, attitudes, interests, and behaviors of more than 5,500 individuals, which reveals that internal consistency is extremely rare. Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.”
            http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.abstract

            Is the Brain Gendered? A Q&A with Harvard’s Catherine Dulac

            “Indeed, it is assumed that the male and the female brains are very different because males and female behaviors differ so significantly. But over the last few decades, neuroscientists have been looking for major anatomical differences and did not find that many.

            Actually, they’ve found surprisingly few differences: more neurons or more neuronal spines here and there in one sex or the other, with great variations from one individual to the other but that’s about it. So there is a paradox between this apparent similarity of the brains of males and females and the strikingly different behaviors they engage in.”
            https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/

          41. Hello MalibuGuy

            In a crazy way I have grown sorta fond of you . . . no . . . not in THAT way.

            You are a kid–about the age if I had a grandson. You say you are in your 20s, and so I appreciate your plight. Maybe it’s because you met two trans girls–a statistically unlikely even unless you are hanging at the Queen Mary bar–but you are not and don’t worried. Don’t be! We are not coming for you.

            No one will pull you in. As I suggested earlier, a transsexual will listen in and around the conversation as you say how you want to have kids, etc., etc., and will figure out what you want.

            From the film “Risky Business” you imagine the scene with Jackie,

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGMbRRBMKt4

            She is a stereotype. But there are other trans girls more like Lana, the girl every boy on the lake wants. In actuality it is the scene from “Risky Business,” Love On a Real Train, which in my experiences is what sex with a trans girl is like and the kind of girl you can expect.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8uuQp95vYw&t=48s

            Happily for you, you will experience neither! for the trans woman will see you are NOT the one, and believe me NO stealth passing post-op will do that to you. She’ll respect you too much, and she willy truly understanding your needs and choices, and she will move and leave you behind without making so much as a ripple. Fear not. You can look forward to an ending of your choice more like the film “The Graduate,”

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TP4MuVnS2A

            Yes, I use motion picture analogies, but they are our common coin and my daily business. Who is happier in the end, Joel or Benjamin? Maybe neither.

          42. “You are a kid–about the age if I had a grandson.”

            lol! Is that your attempt at being condescending and to suggest that I am too young to know what I’m talking about therefore all that I present is false, meanwhile your words are wise and true?! I’m not concerned with your personal opinions.

            “Maybe it’s because you met two trans girls–a statistically unlikely even unless you are hanging at the Queen Mary bar–but you are not and don’t worried. Don’t be! We are not coming for you.”

            Again, I live in Malibu CA (Los Angeles County). My office is in Santa Monica, not too far away from the Sunset Strip. Los Angeles is filled with trans people and all other types of LGBTQ people. I’ve been in Starbucks when Bruclyn Jenner stopped by. I’ve also been pumping gas next to Jenner. What are the odds of running into Jenner twice?! As I’ve already stated, even when a trans woman “passes” very well, the voice and perhaps something else, gives them away. Worried you suggest?! No! I’m not worried about a trans person hitting on me (it already happened at a gas station on Wilshire in Santa Monica one night). While you’re busy trying to manufacture reality for me, reality is taking place. Again, I’ve made it very clear that the lies and other BS are my only concern. As I’ve already stated, I don’t care what bathrooms trans people use, who they date or marry (as long as it’s not me). I don’t care where trans people choose to live or work or anything else they do. What I do care about is the truth! Men and women are not some interchangeable children’s toy. There are people who are biologically male, female or intersex. There is no such thing as going from biologically male to female. Gender can be your focus but you can not and will not ever be able to force me and the rest of the world to choose gender identity over biological sex when it comes to relationships.

            “No one will pull you in. As I suggested earlier, a transsexual will listen in and around the conversation as you say how you want to have kids, etc., etc., and will figure out what you want.”

            Again, that is of very little concern to me. Most trans people do not pass well enough to fool me. You can post all the links you want to trans girls in heavy makeup, dresses, and Instagram-style photo filters, looking like biological women and 9 times out of 10, there will be something that in-person (like the voice), would give them away. BTW’ you really don’t seem to have any clue how “a transsexual will listen in and around the conversation as you say how you want to have kids, etc., etc., and will figure out what you want” creepy/sick/freakish/twisted that sounds, do you?!?!?! Like a con artist trying to figure out if he can con the person he just met. If a trans person was an honest and unselfish person, they would just let their potential date know BEFORE a date even happens, that they are trans. If it’s no big deal then there should be no reason to not tell them. ANYTHING that you KNOW has a good chance of being a deal breaker, IS something that the other person should be made aware of, MUCH SOONER rather than later. That is called living a life with integrity. I once met a girl and got her number. We talked on the phone twice before going out on our first date. She told me over the phone after that 2nd call which ended up being a long conversation, that she can’t have kids. She then told me that she always tells guys that just to get it out of the way so they know what they may be getting involved with because she knows that a lot of guys do want to have kids someday. Integrity!

            “in my experiences is what sex with a trans girl is like and the kind of girl you can expect.”

            Again, its as if you’re trying to sell transgender women on someone. One more time. Only about 1/3 of trans people undergo SRS. That means most trans people, have their biological genitals intact. Having sex with a transgender woman without SRS, would be liking having sex with a cisgender male who happens to perhaps have breasts. And for the transwomen who have had SRS done, a “neovagina” is NOT a real vagina. it’s a simulation of the real thing. With regards to sexual intercourse, it is nothing more than a somewhat shallow hole. It does not self-lubricate like a real vagina can. It also is not able to cleanse itself like a real vagina does. It’s inverted penis skin that has the same basic hygiene properties as if someone surgically sewed up 2 sides of an armpit, leaving a hole on one side. We all know what happens to armpits even without being sewed up. The vagina has muscles surrounding it, that which can contract and expand. All of these elements combined make for a unique organ that surgery can not yet manufacture anywhere near perfection.

            “Happily for you, you will experience neither! for the trans woman will see you are NOT the one”

            You’ve now stated that several times. I didn’t need your assurance the first time around nor now. Regardless, my point still remains that most straight men feel the same as I do and want no part in ever “experiencing” a trans woman and that is why trans women who can pass well and feel they don’t need to be upfront out about their biological sex, are nothing more than selfish and shady human beings.

            “Yes, I use motion picture analogies, but they are our common coin and my daily business.”

            80’s Tom Cruise films, were not a part of my childhood as I had not even been born yet. So again with your assumptions that your way is the way for all. My father is an IP and entertainment lawyer of over 25-years at the 3nd largest L.A. firm. Other family members in the film business but I have not seen any of your referenced films and I have no desire to. Again, we all see the world through our own eyes and we all have the right to choose what is best for us. When you try to hide improtant elements, you are denying other people of their right to choose what is best for them.

          43. for some reason i cant hit reply to the correct post

            well sitting to pee comes naturally to me so i guess you deffended my statement about me being a girl altho it didnt need defending i know myself 100 times better then you do

            #proud to be a girl

          44. You’ve already proven yourself to be just another dishonest trans person so your word means jack. If you’re going to sit there and tell me that you have a penis and sitting to pee is just natural to you, I’ll again call you a liar. A formed habit is not the same thing as being natural. Since the beginning of man, males have stood or kneeled to pee. Do you know what a chamber pot is? It would have been very difficult for someone like you with our logic, to have used one to pee sitting down.
            Again, if you know anything about potty training then you should understand that toilets are not meant to ever have a penis enter them. That’s not only just nasty, it is also not a very clean thing to do. But hey, it’s your body; do with it whatever you’d like to.

          45. wow your just a stubburn idiot who refuses to look at facts and reality
            i know wtf im talking about i lived it i researched it i have first hand knolledge
            you have nothing but bias and bigotry its time your grow up or get out theres no place in a civiliosed word for bias idiots such as yourself
            you dont have any say of who others are or how they should live there life

            im a girl always was always will be
            your a loser always was always will be

            im done feeding this troll no more point arguing with it its a lost cause im done wasting time on idiots such as this i suggest you ppl do the same
            it wont accept facts that go against its biases

          46. “wow your just a stubburn idiot”

            Again, you’re calling me an idiot yet you still can’t form proper sentences nor figure out the difference between your and you’re. LOL!!!!!

            “who refuses to look at facts and reality i know wtf im talking about i lived it i researched it i have first hand knolledge
            you have nothing but bias and bigotry”

            Good Lord! Your spelling is just getting worse with each new post of yours. What the hell is knolledge?!?! You continue to talk in circles, claiming that you’re right and that I’m wrong. Okay, so why don’t you break it down? What EXACTLY am I wrong about and where is your credible proof with links, for that which you claim??? You’re saying a whole lot of NOTHING. We get it, dude! You’re a trans person and you’re hurt and angry that I and most of the world, do not and will not ever treat you nor see you as being one in the same as a biological female.

            “civiliosed word”

            Okay…..speaks for itself.

            “you dont have any say of who others are or how they should live there life”

            I guess you didn’t get it the first half dozen times when I stated that I don’t care what you think of yourself or what you do with your life. That is none of my business nor would I ever want to be any of my business. I’m here to say loud and clear that a trans “woman” and a cisgender woman aka a biological woman, are NOT the same things (that’s why they have different names). They are not the same and you will NEVER be able to force me or anyone else, when it comes to personal relationships, to treat them as the same. There is no law and there never will be any law that requires people to on a personal level, treat you as if you are a cisgender/biological woman.

            “im a girl always was always will be
            your a loser always was always will be”

            Yes, you always will be a transgender girl by way of your gender identity and you will always be a biological male by way of your biological sex.

            If I’m not loser then why is it that you, not me, are the one fighting depression and has a history of suicidal thoughts?!

            Now remember, you just claimed that you were done responding to me, so let’s hope that I never see anymore reply emails with your name in them. Then again, like I said, you can’t trust the words of a transgender person, 8 times out of 10.

          47. So are you one of those people that squats above the toilet seat when you go to a poo? Or do you throughly clean your penis after you’ve been? Also can you provide any evidence that it is a) more unhygienic for men than it is for women and b) why you think that using something as unnatural as a toilet is natural?

            Here’s a couple of hints for you https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/aug/28/toilets-india-health-rural-women-safety https://arstechnica.com/science/2014/06/open-defecation-solves-the-child-mortality-puzzle-among-indian-muslims/

          48. “So are you one of those people that squats above the toilet seat when you go to a poo?”

            LOL!!!! Clearly, you weren’t potty trained. Here in America, males are taught how to use a toilet. If one needs to pee first, we stand, lift the toilet seat, pee standing up, lower toilet seat and then sit to “poo” while our penis sits OUTSIDE of the toilet seat. Sounds kinda logical, now doesn’t it?!

            “Also can you provide any evidence that it is a) more unhygienic for men than it is for women and b) why you think that using something as unnatural as a toilet is natural?”

            Your young ignorant mind has become very annoying. Are now just making crap up just to have something to argue?!

            Most biological males, do not have a shrunken penis like many trans women on HRT have. If a penis sits in the toilet, it is closer to the water below. Closer equals a strong chance of having splashing water coming into contact with it vs no contact if the person is standing up. What, would you like for me to google for you, a scientific study of this logical conclusion?! Not gonna happen!

            Why do I think using a toilet is natural?! LOL!!! Good Lord!!!! Biological males have always either stood up or kneeled to pee. WHAT they pee into or on, has NOTHING to do with being natural. The position of their body is what IS natural! When I go camping or hiking, I pee in the woods just as if there were a toilet in front of me, just the same as biological males have always done, long before the toilet was invented.

            And your link, I didn’t even bother clicking on it. Your entire post is pointless other than to display your need to argue for the sake of arguing because I am someone who is making points that you do not like.

          49. Kirstin, there really is no end to the amount of BS you’re willing to type.

            “this comment proves to me you know absolutly nothing about trans ppl in any way shape or form and refuse to accept reality and rather sit in your black and white world and think every has to be just like you”

            Why don’t you explain exactly what it is that I am wrong about and prove it??? You really don’t seem to understand that your word means jack. Things are not so, just because you say so.

            “you need to grow up theres no place in a civilised society for bigotry such as yourself”

            I see that you’re still having problems forming ANY proper sentences. Is English not your primary language?! There is no bigotry in acknowledging truth over fiction. I’m not willing to live a lie just to make you feel better about yourself.

            “i know what i am i know who i am you do not nor do you have any grounds to say”

            Human beings are biologically male, female, or intersex. Again, the medical science definition of transgender is a person whose biological sex does not match their gender identity. That’s not my opinion. It’s a medical science fact.

            “i am a girl and thats the end this conversation is done you are nothing but another uneducated bigot who refuces to see reality”

            Please! Learn to use a spelling corrector. You continue to come across as a 10-year old child. You are a girl who happens to NOT be a biological female. That is why you are a transgender girl.

          50. you are what you choose to be how you choose to live and nothing more
            if you choose that your a girl and being a girl is what makes you happy
            if gender is not your thing you dont want to clasify as 1 or the other because of what society has made of it then your non binary
            if your gender identity changes then your gender fluid ect
            biology is not a defining facter to who you are it does not control or say what you like or dislike but gender roles hurt alot of ppl including cisgenders including your un judged straight white male even including me
            truth is most ppl turn away possible interests for the sole reason of gender roles some guys go most there life not wearing a dress cause its girly as the only reason but ive seen later on doing it as a joke or something they find it more comforting
            thats 1 of many examples and is way more common then you think
            heres an example ive seen a few times irl a straight cisgendered guy buys a prius loves the prius but all his friends say its a girly car and makes fun of him so he sells it to buy some big truck or something that he does not like
            how is that right
            you can not let friends or society tell you how to live its your life not theres
            ill never know what id be like if gender roles didn’t exist at all all i know is here and now
            i love being seen as a girl i love dresses skirts makeup ect im more of a girly girl tho these dont make up my gender identity what makes up my gender identity is what i feel in the heart
            someday i hope to get srs to but its a ways out
            also dresses are comfy

            ps. i almost died twice from this cause i developed a fatal insomnia that could have killed me the first time
            it got so uncomfortable being seen as a guy wearing guys clothes that my body could not get sleep i got 0 sleep for a long time idk what happened that finally got me enough sleep to survive
            the second time i was deppressed my body was giving up layed in bed 2 days i owe thanks to runescape’s community for saving me

            proud to be a girl and always will be

          51. @Kirstin – I so feel for you from your last post, and I agree, letting the gender lines in society blur will have benefits for more than just the Trans community, as it will enable cis people (men will benefit more than women due to the womens movements at the turn of the last century that allowed them to wear traditionally male clothing) to express themselves better, and may also help to break down Toxic Masculinity (the one coined by Men rather than the perverted version that some feminists use).

          52. The only people complaining about gender vs sex, are trans people. Society doesn’t have that specific problem so please stop trying to claim that it does in an attempt to gather more support for the less than 0.1% of society that is trans anything. Most of us, LIKE our focus on biological sex as it relates to relationships because it’s in line with our natural desires.

          53. Reading your posts has become harder and harder. It’s as if you have 5 thoughts at once, all being typed out at once. And you’re still talking in circles repeating yourself. Again, no matter how many times you repeat the same BS, it’s not going to change what is real and truthful. You keep talking about who you are. I don’t care who you are. I’m not interested in your personal story.

            You continue to ignore the fact that I’m talking about WHAT you are as in your biological sex. Again, WHO you are is up to you and whatever is going on in that brain of yours. WHAT you are is NOT up to you. What you are, was decided months before you entered the world.

            Reading you talk in circles about foolish things is painful. Cars and truck. really?!?! There is no such thing as social influences when it comes to medical science facts such as biological sex. No matter what you think, your biology is what it is. You can’t think yourself into a different race. You can’t think yourself into having a real vagina rather than a penis. You can’t think yourself into being taller than you are. You can’t think your eye color into a different eye color. But you can wear contact lenses to simulate having different eye colors. But just like “transitioning” it’s not real. Your actual eye color is still right there hiding under your fake eye color.

            No matter how depressing your life is or has ever been, that doesn’t mean society should play along with you in order to make you feel better about yourself and your life. In other words, talking about almost killing yourself, has nothing to do with people like me speaking the truth. I’m not willing to play along and I know most people are also not willing to.

            Be a girl. Date who you want (as long as they want to date you too). Use whatever bathroom you want. Put whatever sex you want on your government papers, drivers license, etc. Live where you want (even next door to me – I don’t care). Travel where you want. Work where you want. But don’t ask me, when it comes to relationships (dating/sex/romance/marriage) to consider you to be exactly the same type of woman as biological women. Don’t ask me to because you are not the same and you will never be the same as them. That is why you are called transgender and they are not. No matter how happy it would make you to be exactly like them; nature did not make you so and man can not turn you into them. You are a girl by way of your gender but you are not a female by way of your biological sex.

          54. you just choose not to read it saying its hard cause it is the truth
            im not ignoring facts you are im a girl and no bigotry such as yourself is going to tell me otherwise
            so grow the fk up

          55. “you just choose not to read it saying its hard cause it is the truth
            im not ignoring facts you are im a girl and no bigotry such as yourself is going to tell me otherwise
            so grow the fk up”

            Most times, stupid people have no clue just how stupid they are. They talk and talk and talk, thinking that they are correct and making a lot of sense and can’t be bothered with logic and truth.

            Yes, dude, you are ignoring the facts that I keep mentioning about your biological sex being male. You are ignoring the fact that I mentioned several times about the definition of transgender is that your biological sex does not match your gender.

          56. Virginia, so you’re still not willing to give up the trans shady bag of twisting shady tricks?!

            “So she’s a “man?” And where did you do to medical school, doctor? When did you give her the physical exam? Only a quack would a diagnosis without examining the patient.”

            You know good and well that nobody is making a “diagnosis.” You also know good and well what the medical science definition of transgender is. You and Kirstin, both claim to be transgender women. By definition, what that means is that you are both NOT biological females. As much as you hate that fact, there are NO words you can twist and lie with, in order to change that fact. By definition, a transgender woman is someone who was born as a biological male but has the gender identity that is associated with biological females. With your mind, you have gender dysphoria. Your mind tells you that you are female. Your body tells medical science that it is male. At present, medical science is not able to actually change a person’s biological sex from one to the other. That means the sex we are born with (excluding some people with an intersex condition), is the sex we will die with.

            Gender is who you are. Biological sex is what you are. You can choose to focus on your gender rather than your sex. That is your right to do so. But when it comes to dating, you can NOT choose for ANYONE else, which one they find to be most important. Try to do so at your own risk! If someone does not see you as female by way of your gender because to them, your biological sex matters most, then move the hell on and find someone who thinks as you do. But again, you do not have the right to decide what is most important to other people. Just the same, I do not have the right to decide what is most important to you. That is why I can call you a woman even though I do not think of you or any other transwoman as a real woman. But in your mind you are, so I will call you a woman.

            Again, this argument only matters when it comes to dating and when it comes to health concerns with a medical professional.

          57. Hello MalibuGuy,

            I know it is very important to you about biological sex. Your comments painfully reflect that. But others march to the tune of a different drummer.

            Your focus is on baby making, that much is clear from your vivid descriptions earlier about you love of female anatomy and intimate acts. I am not sure why you aren’t out wooing a cis woman to impregnate instead of spending time researching trans people. Usually only trans people spend that much time studying a condition that affects them. And while I realize you likely are swayed by your “biology” argument–never mind we’ve totally lost sight of the article we are supposedly discussing–most trans people of transition have thought through your argument (and without your help) and are going forward anyone.

            Other than the chromosome and fertility arguments you champion, is there any other reason not to transition?

            You make grand declarations about sex drive and how many people have surgery and for what reasons and despite repeated requests to where you get these statistics, you cite no sources, which suggests you are making them up. You are offered links to scientific peer reviewed medical papers, not to mention the article we are supposedly discussing and you refuse to read or address how these articles are in error. You do say they are BS and you attack the character and intelligence of those who are offering information that contradicts your view. But again, instead of showing where the research are in error by offering current peer reviewed medical studies, you go on a tear.

            I would suggest you go after those cis vaginae you crave instead of spending all this time thinking about and writing about and fantasizing about and describing the short-falls of trans vaginae. Enough already. We get it. You don’t like us. Fine. We don’t need your approval.

            Some people transitioned long before you were born and what is done is done.

            Hope you find that girl you’re looking for.

            V-

          58. “I know it is very important to you about biological sex. Your comments painfully reflect that. But others march to the tune of a different drummer”

            Biological sex is as important to me as it is to gay people. And it’s not just me. You’d like to make it seem to be that I’m some rare person when in reality we both know that those willing to ignore biological sex are the rare people. That is why this blog was created. That is why you are here commenting. If a lot of people were interested in dating transgender people, a lot more than those who are not willing, then there would be little to no need for the transgender propaganda push here and elsewhere. This blog and your words are all in an attempt to convince more people that people should be willing to give transgender people a chance.

            “Your focus is on baby making, that much is clear from your vivid descriptions earlier about you love of female anatomy and intimate acts.”

            Clearly, you either don’t understand that reality is not what you make it out to be in your mind and or you’re just further displaying your dishonesty once again. I’m in my mid-20s. I’m not interested in “making babies” anytime soon. My love of the female anatomy, again, is not some rare focus as you’re attempting to make it out to be. My natural desires are those shared by MOST straight biological males on earth. Wanting to only be with biological women, is not just about someday having kids. Stop lying to yourself! Most straight guys anywhere on earth, have NO desire to have sexual contact with another penis. It has nothing to do with having kids. We simply do not want to have gay sex. That is not how nature created us. Again, you can minimize having a penis and other biological male features but most of us are not willing to do the same.

            “I am not sure why you aren’t out wooing a cis woman to impregnate instead of spending time researching trans people.”

            LOL!!!! The more you type, the more it is clear that you are just as full of BS as Kirstin. Perhaps you missed the part where I clearly stated that I am in a relationship. Also, being a former Los Angeles-area startup founder and a future one, I learned all that I needed to about trans people because being sued over labor laws, is not something that I’m interested in. I know all I need to know about trans people and have zero interest in learning anything more. But hey, you go right ahead with your assumptions.

            “Usually only trans people spend that much time studying a condition that affects them.”

            LOL!!!! Do the false assumptions have no end with you? See my above response.

            “despite repeated requests to where you get these statistics”

            That is you LYING again. Like I said, transgender people, more often than not, are VERY dishonest people. You’ve once again proven that. Tell me, show me exactly where any such question was asked of me here? Furthermore, you just got done stating that trans people do their research. Why on earth would you need to ask me that which you should already know?!

            To answer your question that is laced with another one of your lies: https://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2014/03/13/watch-debunking-surgery-top-priority-trans-people-myth
            You can also find the same in many other publications. Google is your friend. Lying is not!

            “you cite no sources, which suggests you are making them up.”

            Stop generalizing and making blanket statements. Be specific. What else exactly are you claiming to dispute and requesting data sources on? Please, stop with the BS transgender games. I’ve provided links to some of the facts that I’ve presented here and we both know that. Stop lying. As far as sex drive, I’ve presented several different points about sex drive. Again, be specific! What exactly are you questioning? That silly transgender game where you complain about one sentence and then try to, in a very shady way, apply your response to that one sentence, to everything else that was written, is nothing short of just more BS game playing/lies.

            “You are offered links to scientific peer reviewed medical papers, not to mention the article we are supposedly discussing and you refuse to read or address how these articles are in error.”

            And you continue to do the same BS as mentioned above. LOL!!!! Links to peer-reviewed papers you say? Which links are those? I addressed all of the links I needed to. I told you that I skipped the link showing trans “girls” looking like biological girls because there was no need for me to see pictures of trans girls. Either you are just simply full of BS or you don’t have a very good memory. Why don’t you read my posts again so that you can see that this latest post of yours, is far from being accurate?

            “You do say they are BS and you attack the character and intelligence of those who are offering information that contradicts your view.”

            More false blanket statements. Anyone who will read the comments will be able to see that you are once again not being honest and straight forward. Both you and Kirstin, have ignored most of the information contained in my long posts and you know that. You’ve ignored them because you had no response to make against them. There are opinions and there are facts. I’ve offered both my own personal opinions and medical science facts. Claiming BS now, is not going to negate my past posts, no matter how much you hope it will. Again, point out anything specific. Stop the games and stop talking in circles.

            “But again, instead of showing where the research are in error by offering current peer reviewed medical studies, you go on a tear.”

            Oh so I guess you missed my links about the most recent brain sex studies?! This entire post of yours, is you repeating yoursefl, talking in circles, making the exact same false statements. Again, you lying now, is not going to negate all that is factual and here for anyone to read.

            While you’re busy trying to give me advice (LOL!!!), here is some advice for you; stop being like a moth to a flame. Stop being dishonest. You can’t get the world to change what’s in their hearts and minds by telling lies.

          59. Kirstin, thanks again for further proving that most transgender people are LIARS! You are lying your trans ass off once again.

            “you posted links full of nothing but bs you have no argument ”

            Oh is that right?! Here are the links that I’ve posted here:

            Scientific American – A credible science publication, doing an interview with a Harvard professor who has done the most recent large-scale transgender-related brain study.

            PNAS peer-reviewed medical paper on the validity of trans brains and female vs male brains.

            The Williams Institute at UCLA – The most recent and most extensive U.S. study on transgender suicide rates and causes.

            Merriam-Webster Dictionary – Definition of homosexual, that which clearly explains that being homosexual is defined by the biological sex you are attracted to, not gender as you tried to argue.

            Dictionary.com – Another source sharing the same definition as Merriam-Webster, with regards to what makes someone gay/homosexual.

            Those are the links I’ve posted on this blog. Yet according to you, they are BS links?!?! LOL!!!! LOL!!!!! You truly are OUT TO LUNCH!

            “you have no say in who or what i am cause your not me i am a girl plain and simple”

            One more time: I don’t care who you are. I’m not interested in your “story.” I’m not here to argue about how you feel about yourself. That’s your business, not mine. Who you are is not the same thing as what you are. You are a human being. No matter how you feel about yourself, WHAT you are is a human being. You don’t get to decide whether or not you are a human being. A human being is exactly WHAT you are according to medical science facts.

            Also according to medical science, if you are a transgender woman, that means that your biological sex is male. If you are a transgender woman, that means that you have XY sex chromosomes, male primary sex organs, and the ability to seed birth. If you are a transgender woman, that means that you do not have XX sex chromosomes. If you are a transgender woman, that means that you can not give birth like a biological woman because you do not have female primary sex organs because you are not a biological female.

            I normally do not waste my time clicking on blind links. If you’re going to post a link, then you should be able to explain what said link is about and or quote from said link. However, I just not clicked on your links. The first one, I didn’t bother reading because it’s a damn user comment forum. It’s like you linking to another comment from this blog as some type of valid proof of your claim. Not credible!

            Your 3rd link does not negate anything that I’ve stated. From your 3rd link: “whose gender identity or expression differs from societal expectations of how they should look, act, or identify based on the sex they were assigned at birth.”

            Do you really not understand what that means?!?!?! What it means is the same thing that I’ve stated many times by now. Your gender identity does not match your biological sex which was “assigned” to you at birth. At birth, a medical professional saw that you have a penis which is can only mean 1 of two things: A) you are a biological male or B) you are a person with an intersex condition. We all know that gender and sex are not the same things. Therefore, your gender could not be known to anyone until you were old enough to speak and understand and to then explain what gender you are. Regardless of your gender within your mind, your biological sex within your body, is what it is no matter how much you hate it.

            Your 2nd link is from a tabloid. You really are having a hard time with the whole credibility thing. Tabloids like that, create attention-getting headlines for people like you to click on.

            That article talks about womb transplants. Do you really not understand just how many organs are required in order for a real woman to give birth??? Your silly article also talks about wombs by way of a donor.

            Let’s just say for the sake of argument, it’s some day far into the future and trans women can have female sex organs successfully transplanted into them. Where do you imagine the donor organs would come from??? Right now REAL biological women who can’t give birth because of failed or missing sex organs, are waiting for the possibility to become reality for them to have organs transplanted.

            Donor organs have always been and are still very much in short supply. What that means “Kirstin” is that there are not very many donor organs to go around. Furthermore, it’s a very safe bet to say that real biological women, will always be first in line for donor female sex organs. A real biological woman may need just one sex organ where as a trans woman would need all of them because they are biological males, which means they were born with NO female sex organs.

            Again, here in the U.S. we are still trying to figure out how to successfully transplant female sex organs into real biological females. You’re not a biological female. You don’t have a vagina and all of the other plumbing that goes along with a vagina. You do not seem to have any idea just how complex a real biological female body is.

            Any successful female sex organ transplants that have been done so far, have been done outside of the U.S. and have ONLY been done with real biological females. Again, the only known case of a transgender woman having female sex organs transplanted into her is Lili Elbe and she died as a result of those attempts. 90-years later and it still has not been successfully done.

            Again, less than 1/3 of transgender people are willing to undergo SRS (sex reassignment surgery). Cost is not the main reason why. The main reasons why are that it is very painful. It is a life commitment that does NOT yield magical results, transforming a penis into a real vagina. For some trans women who have SRS done to create a “neovagina”, they end up permanently losing all sex drive. For most who have it done, they end up with a lifetime of infections and bad odor issues to deal with on a daily basis. A neovagina is nothing more than a simulation of the real thing. It is literally just a hole to insert a penis into. But it does not have the natural cleansing abilities of a real vagina. It also can not self-lubricate itself.

            What’s my point? My point is that something mostly external like a neovagina, is something that most trans women do NOT choose to have because the pros don’t outweigh the cons. What may sound like an easy solution to a burning desire, is not in reality so easy. Transforming a human body from one biological sex to another is not something medical science can currently do. And NO, in 10 years from now, they will not be able to do so. But you are more than welcome to keep the faith. Whatever it takes to help you sleep at night.

          60. When you say that M2F’s are not biological women, do you mean they didn’t have vaginas at birth or that they don’t have XX chromosomes?

            If it’s the former, then how do you know they weren’t just born intersex and the doctors decided that they would be a boy?

            If it’s the latter, how do you know full stop? Did you do blood tests?

            What is a 100% categorical definition of a woman that will stand up to the entirety of human existence and science, that also takes into account those intersex people that were assigned female at birth; those that are guevedoces https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency ; those with Swyer syndrome https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome ; those people with de la Chapelle syndrome https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11268892 ?

          61. I’ve written a lot here. Perhaps you missed the part where what I’ve already written answers the questions you’re now asking.

            There are two groups of people that 98% of the world are a part of. That 98% includes almost every transgender person. Those two groups are what the medical sciences community refers to as biological sex. The other 2% are mostly people with an intersex condition of some type. More so now, some medical professionals consider intersex to be the 3rd sex.

            Biological female: Having XX sex chromosomes, female primary sex and reproductive sex organs and the ability to give birth.

            Biological male: Having XY sex chromosomes, male primary sex and reproductive sex organs and the ability to seed birth.

            Intersex people are people BORN (not manufactured) with various elements of both of the two groups described above (male and female).

            Transgender people are people who are born with ALL of the elements of ONE of the two biological sexes above (not including intersex). That IS the definition of transgender. Of course, there are a few rare exceptions as a few intersex people consider themselves to fall into transgender territory. However, overall, almost every single trans person, is NOT a person with an intersex condition. The definition of intersex does not currently include the thoughts and feelings of a person (gender identity).

            Now, if you’d like to argue the definition of biological sex, to claim that it’s “outdated” or whatever other pro-trans argument used today; then you’ll also need to claim that the definition of transgender (along with several other terms) is also “outdated” because the definition of transgender is based upon fully, on the definition of biological sex.

            “What is a 100% categorical definition of a woman that will stand up to the entirety of human existence and science, that also takes into account those intersex people that were assigned female at birth”

            LOL!!!! Transgender people, always seem to think they are being so clever with their BS. You’re asking a question that within itself, is laced with shady BS. NOTHING in nature is ever “100%” 100% of the time. Therefore, the majority rules. That is how science works. Human beings can be described as being living beings with two lungs, two legs, two arms, one brain, one heart, etc. Those are known facts about the physical elements of human beings. However, each of the elements that I just mentioned (including one heart and one brain) are NOT 100%, 100% of the time. I’m going to assume that you understand the point I just made.

            Furthermore, this argument about biological sex and what it “should” mean today, can be muted very quickly with a simple fact: Biological sex is a term that was created for the very specific purpose of identifying the two groups that I described above. No matter what those TWO GROUPS ARE CALLED, they will ALWAYS exist! There are human beings that can seed birth and there are human beings that can give birth. Each group has specific organs to achieve one or the other. Healthcare professionals will always need to know which group their patients belong to and romantic interests will always want to know which group their potential mate/date/sex partner, etc., belongs to.

            This attempt by the transgender community to change what defines biological sex is nothing short of futile for the above-stated reasons (the two groups will always exist and will always matter to healthcare providers and romantic interests). Manipulate the definition of biological sex and a new term will take over, that which will keep those two groups, clearly separately defined. That, of course, would resort in defeating the entire goal of the transgender community in trying to erase all labels that separate transgender people from cisgender people.

          62. @MalibuGuy

            First, I not that your definition of Biological sex completely ignores any development of the brain. Does that mean that you don’t believe that Gender is a thing? As if you do, you are being willfully ignorant (especially given all of the scholarly articles you’ve been referred to in this thread) Does it mean that you think that Gender has no place in our society? In which case I feel you’re being bigoted and trying to shout people down by saying their arguments are invalid. Or does it mean that you feel that it has no relevance to the article and comments that you’ve been responding to? Given that the brain is the primary sexual organ of the body, and without it sexual attraction and arousal, and functioning in society are completely unattainable.

            According to the most recent research that I’ve read, Transgender is actually likely to be an intersex condition rather than a mainstream condition (using your definitions above), as there are 2 stages in birth where the hormones that the foetus receives affects the sex/gender of the child. The first one is the wave of Testosterone that triggers the formation of the testes and penis, and the second one is the one that triggers the sex of the brain. ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094885 ) This means that Transgender people are in the 2% that you quoted rather than the 98% of typical births. ( https://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/GenderVarianceUK-report.pdf )

            Also, AFAIK we’re not trying to change what Biological sex means, rather we’re trying to get the fact that sex and gender are fundamentally different recognised, and get organisations to work off of gender rather than sex on official documents and processes. which for 96-8% of the population means that nothing changes, but for the other 2-4% means that they can identify as the gender of their brains and easily get documentation that allows them to function in society as a member of that gender. We are also trying to break down the strong barriers to social identification that various items of clothing, makeup, and accessories make to gender identification in society so that when we’re dressing according to our gender, but against our sex we don’t get lumped with abuse or assulted/murdered. Because while conflating sex and gender will be harmless in 96-8% of situations, in the other 2-4% of situations it can be actively harmful to both mental and physical health. (https://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html http://report-it.org.uk/files/hate-crime-1516-hosb1116.pdf ). So while there are people that believe that just because someone doesn’t “pass” as one gender or another and is thus open to abuse, we will need to campaign for more legal and political assistance. Equally the medical sector will continue to do it’s research into what causes gender and sexual variance in order to better understand how humans work, and thus better develop treatments for people that take into account everything they can about the person. A side effect of this may well be that Transgender people are identified younger, (possibly at birth, based on brain scans) and raised as a member of their gender rather than their sex, thus lowering the cost they put on society because of their dysphoria, and probably also increasing the amount they contribute to society because they’re no longer suffering from dysphoria.

          63. Part 1:

            “First, I not that your definition of Biological sex completely ignores any development of the brain.”

            I’m not a medical sciences professional therefore, I do not have my own definition of biological sex. I read what the real medical sciences community has researched, created, and published and comprehend it.

            Again, the definition of biological sex, according to MOST of the medical sciences community, is not defined by the brain. All human beings, both male, and female have brains. What most of trans people refuse to acknowledge, is the FACT that medical science, has NOT yet been able to conclude that there is even such a thing as male and female brains. We have no way of scientifically identifying all human brains as being male or female other than by determining which biological body they are in or came from. If we don’t have constant factual differences between all brains in bio males and bio females, then how can we say that we know that a trans woman has a female brain?!?!?!?!

            Two of the most RECENT brain sex studies:

            Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic

            Abstract

            Whereas a categorical difference in the genitals has always been acknowledged, the question of how far these categories extend into human biology is still not resolved. Documented sex/gender differences in the brain are often taken as support of a sexually dimorphic view of human brains (“female brain” or “male brain”). However, such a distinction would be possible only if sex/gender differences in brain features were highly dimorphic (i.e., little overlap between the forms of these features in males and females) and internally consistent (i.e., a brain has only “male” or only “female” features).

            Here, analysis of MRIs of more than 1,400 human brains from four datasets reveals extensive overlap between the distributions of females and males for all gray matter, white matter, and connections assessed. Moreover, analyses of internal consistency reveal that brains with features that are consistently at one end of the “maleness-femaleness” continuum are rare. Rather, most brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males.

            Our findings are robust across sample, age, type of MRI, and method of analysis. These findings are corroborated by a similar analysis of personality traits, attitudes, interests, and behaviors of more than 5,500 individuals, which reveals that internal consistency is extremely rare. Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.”
            http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.abstract

            Is the Brain Gendered? A Q&A with Harvard’s Catherine Dulac

            “Indeed, it is assumed that the male and the female brains are very different because males and female behaviors differ so significantly. But over the last few decades, neuroscientists have been looking for major anatomical differences and did not find that many. Actually, they’ve found surprisingly few differences: more neurons or more neuronal spines here and there in one sex or the other, with great variations from one individual to the other but that’s about it. So there is a paradox between this apparent similarity of the brains of males and females and the strikingly different behaviors they engage in.”
            https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/

            Furthermore, what so absurd about that which you trans people try to imply is the fact that the definition of BEING TRANSGENDER is based upon the definition of biological sex that you would deny. Why don’t you read that sentence one more time?! You are transgender. transgender means that your biological sex does not match your gender identity. If your biological sex could be defined by your claimed brain sex, then you would NOT be transgender, now would you???

            “Does that mean that you don’t believe that Gender is a thing?”

            Are you just trying to waste my time, talking in circles and saying BS? I don’t know how many of my comments you’ve read here but why don’t you hit Ctrl-F and in the search/find box, type in my username. More than once here, I’ve already spoken about gender sufficiently enough that you should not need to ask such a stupid question. As I’ve stated before, gender is of the mind. Gender is WHO you are while biological sex is WHAT you are. Your gender is your own sense of self. We as a society (including doctors) use the term gender when we actually mean sex aka biological sex. By definition, gender CAN mean many different things. It is a social construct. It is not your biology. It is not your biological sex organs.

            “As if you do, you are being willfully ignorant (especially given all of the scholarly articles you’ve been referred to in this thread) Does it mean that you think that Gender has no place in our society?”

            Like Kirstin, it’s clear that you are another very young trans person. Do I “think that gender has no place in our society?” lol! See my above response within this post.

            “In which case I feel you’re being bigoted and trying to shout people down by saying their arguments are invalid. Or does it mean that you feel that it has no relevance to the article and comments that you’ve been responding to?”

            You went from asking a stupid question to then assuming an answer to said stupid question for me and then now you run off with a reply to an answer that I never gave. LOL!!!! It’s as if you had a conversation with me, only you left me out of it. LOL!!!!!

            “Given that the brain is the primary sexual organ of the body, and without it sexual attraction and arousal, and functioning in society are completely unattainable.”

            See my response above within this post about the definition of biological sex. Furthermore, as another example, human beings can not live life nor do anything without a working heart and lungs. Both males and females, having lungs and a heart. Without them, sex, eating, sleeping, LIVING, would not be possible. Those organs are not part of the definition of biological sex. Why? because medical science concluded that those organs between males and females, do NOT have any known dominate and meaningful characteristics that which present in the majority of ONLY ONE SEX!!!!! If need be, you may need to read this entire paragraph more than once to make sure you comprehend what’s been written.

            “According to the most recent research that I’ve read, Transgender is actually likely to be an intersex condition rather than a mainstream condition”

            It’s a sad sight that you have no clue just how clueless you are and how apparent it is to someone such as myself. “mainstream condition” you say?!?!?!?! LOL!!!!! I really hate having to repeat myself. But here we go. Again. More so today than years gone by, some members of the medical sciences community now consider intersex to be the third sex. Even though not everyone in medical science has arrived at the conclusion, let’s go along with it (personally, I agree that it is the third sex). Intersex is defined by having physical elements of BOTH male and female sexes. By definition, for a person to be considered intersex, they must any combination/variation of elements found in both biological females and biological males. That can be either or both elements found externally or internally.

            From The Intersex Society of North America:

            “Many people confuse transgender and transsexual people with people with intersex conditions because they see two groups of people who would like to choose their own gender identity and sometimes those choices require hormonal treatments and/or surgery. These are similarities. It’s also true, albeit rare, that some people who have intersex conditions also decide to change genders at some point in their life, so some people with intersex conditions might also identify themselves as transgender or transsexual.

            In spite of these similarities, these two groups should not be and cannot be thought of as one. The truth is that the vast majority of people with intersex conditions identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. Thus, where all people who identify as transgender or transsexual experience problems with their gender identity, only a small portion of intersex people experience these problems.

            It’s also important to understand the differences between these two groups because in spite of some similarities they face many different struggles, including different forms of discrimination. The differences between transgender and transsexual and intersex have been understood by lawmakers in countries such as Australia where lawmakers have publicly acknowledged that people with intersex conditions have distinct needs from people who identify as transgender or transsexual.”
            http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender

          64. Part 2:

            “This means that Transgender people are in the 2% that you quoted rather than the 98% of typical births.”

            Why oh why must you transgender people be SO FULL OF BS AND LIES?!?!?!!? So desperate for the world to see you as what you wish you had been born as you actually believe you can convince people to see you as what you want to be seen as in some pitiful attempt at accepting perception in place of reality. Again, 98% of the world is born with either A) XX sex chromosomes, female primary sex and reproductive organs, secondary female sex characteristics, and the ability to give birth with said organs. Or B) XY Sex chromosomes, male primary sex and reproductive organs, secondary male sex characteristics, and the ability to seed birth with said organs. The other 2% are people born with a COMBINATION of both A and B! Again, the definition of transgender means that you are born as either A or B yet your gender identity does not match with your A or B. You can LIE, TWIST and SPIN as much as you want, but reality does not work according to your wishes and desires.

            “Also, AFAIK we’re not trying to change what Biological sex means, rather we’re trying to get the fact that sex and gender are fundamentally different recognised, and get organisations to work off of gender rather than sex on official documents and processes.”

            In reality, you just (finally) stated something honest and truthful but that is NOT the entire picture and you know that! I many states and in some other countries, government ID can already be alerted to reflect your gender identity rather than your biological sex. What the trans community wants just as badly, is for the world to focus on gender identity in EVERY respect. Tell me that isn’t true and I’ll call you a LIAR (again)! You spend your time arguing with people like me who have nothing to do with government, because of the social aspect of gender vs sex, is such an important element in addressing your gender dysphoria. The transgender agenda is to eliminate biological sex from ALL conversations because your biological sex is something that you know you can’t eliminate from your body. The transgender agenda is to replace biological sex with gender, not just on documents but also within the minds and hearts of everyone on earth. The transgender agenda is to convince the world that, for example, a cisgender male not wanting to date a transgender woman, is “transphobic,” evil, and wrong.

            Well, I’m here to tell you that some of us don’t care what you list on your driver’s license. Some of us don’t care what you call yourselves. Some of us don’t care what public bathroom you use. Some of us don’t care who chooses to date you. But MOST of us do care, with regards to romance/dating/sex/marriage, about the differences between transgender men/women and cisgender men/women. When it comes to dating, NOBODY owes you jack. Nobody has to give you a chance to date them. You will never be able to force nor convince most of us to be willing to be romantically involved with trans people.

            In places like the UK it’s against the law to marry someone without letting them know that you are transgender. As laws change to allow you to erase/change your birth records, etc., laws will sweep the globe, protecting cisgender people from UNKNOWINGLY being romantically involved with transgender people. I think I’ve made it more than clear enough that my only concern is regarding the truth about there being important (maybe not important to you but important to most of us) differences between a cisgender/biological woman and a transgender woman. No matter how well a transgender woman passes, she is still NOT and never will be a cisgender/biological female and that is information that is VERY important to most people when it comes to relationships.

            “A side effect of this may well be that Transgender people are identified younger, (possibly at birth, based on brain scans)”

            Good luck with that! As spoken about above, we still can not identify biological sex based solely on scans of the brain; whether in the womb, newborn, grown or even AFTER DEATH! But hey you go right ahead and dream about the day when a transgender person is born, they can have choices made for them to start them on HRT drugs and even SRS to “transition” them before they even learn how to walk. lol!!!

            What you trans people never seem to understand is that YOU spend all day and night thinking about your trans world and everything trans. But the rest of us do not. Here in the U.S., out of almost 350 million people, the most recent estimates indicate that there approximately 700,000 to 1 million trans people. In other words, the world does not revolve around trans people and their issues and desires. Whether medical research or program funding; there are not unlimited resources available to the trans community and that is not going to drastically change anytime soon, no matter how loud the trans community can yell.

            “and raised as a member of their gender rather than their sex, thus lowering the cost they put on society because of their dysphoria, and probably also increasing the amount they contribute to society because they’re no longer suffering from dysphoria”

            I really don’t know if you’re just completely full of BS or just that clueless. In order for transgender people to completely eliminate their gender dysphoria, the world would have to completely stop focusing on sex and only focus on gender identity in every aspect of life, both professionally and socially. Socially that is never going to happen. There is no future where the majority of people around the world or even just here in the U.S., hold gender identity in a higher regard than biological sex when it comes to RELATIONSHIPS. How can I be so sure of this? Because nature always gets her way and if she doesn’t then she gets revenge in majors ways like extinction. As I argued to silly Kirstin, MOST people are attracted to other people based upon sex aka biological sex. You can’t force people to desire something that they don’t want. That has been tried many of times in the past decades with gay people and it never worked. We desire the biological sex that we desire and nothing can or will ever change that. That is how nature designed us.

            As I explained in a prior post, what makes a person gay is the fact that they are attracted to the same biological sex as themselves. A gay guy figures out that he is gay because he lusts over/desires a penis (and the male body it’s attached to). That is why it is called sexuality, not genderality. Nature designed most of us to lust over and desire to have sex with members of the opposite sex for the purpose of reproducing in order to further continue the human race. Now even though we as humans don’t just have sex to make babies, sex is VERY important to most people past puberty. We are very sexual beings. Sex is also a HUGE part of our social existence. Why else do you think everywhere you look in music, film, TV, advertising, online entertainment (porn), etc., sex is always present?!?!?! We aren’t “brainwashed” by media into wanting sex, it is a natural desire. Media just tries to exploit that natural desire.

            No gender dysphoria would mean a transwoman is treated EXACTLY like a biological woman, not just on her government records but EVERY where in life that a biological woman may be found. For all of the reasons that I’ve stated above and for many more; that is never going to happen. You can’t manufacture/manipulate natural desires.

          65. @MalibuGuy Part 1 & 2 & almost forgot

            Part I

            Re brain differences – Please re-read the OP that we are all responding to, specifically “In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex” – and the next two paragraphs.

            Note that in this study they examine a specific part of the brain that they know is different between men and women, as oppose to the paper that you referenced that examines the whole brain to debunk a myth that asserts that men and women have different brains. In fact it’s well known that there are lots of parts of the brain that are dimorphic (https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html), however these are all individual parts, and the varience between sexes does have some overlap such that you can’t say that there is a distinct male or female brain, but there are parts of the brain that tend to be different in Males vs Females, such as the one listed in the original article, and the one in my linked article. So looking at the study that you pointed at, I note that they are looking at whether there is such as thing as male or female brain, and what they found is that while there are some specific features that are more common in males than in females and vice versa, most structures of the brain couldn’t be pinned down even that accurately, and so any declaration on whether a brain is male or female cannot be made just based on the structures of the whole brain. This is not invalidating the prior research that focused on specific structures in the brain. If it did, I expect it would have made front page news. e.g. from the interview that you linked to “Indeed, it is assumed that the male and the female brains are very different because males and female behaviors differ so significantly. But over the last few decades, neuroscientists have been looking for major anatomical differences and did not find that many. Actually, they’ve found surprisingly few differences: more neurons or more neuronal spines here and there in one sex or the other, with great variations from one individual to the other but that’s about it. So there is a paradox between this apparent similarity of the brains of males and females and the strikingly different behaviors they engage in.” Note that she hasn’t said that there aren’t any differences, just that there are no major structural differences, she also points out that there are differences in quantity between genders, but within genders there can be a large amount of variance. Just because research is fun, an academic has collated an summarised neurological research into transgender brains here https://www.academia.edu/22116127/The_Intersex_Brain_A_Case_for_the_Neurological_Roots_of_Trans_Identity

            I also saw that you mentioned Dr Money (in another reply to someone else), and his infamous decision. Many experts in the Transgender world (by experts I mean medical experts rather than transpeople that have done a lot of research) use this as an example that helps prove that gender is a biological trait rather than a learned trait. Given that the same thing happens with intersex people that have been assigned to the wrong gender (In fact there are many intersex people that transition to the other gender later in life http://home.myfairpoint.net/isgt/ )

          66. “Please re-read the OP that we are all responding to, specifically “In 1995 and 2000”

            Reading the blog post again is not going to make me change my mind and agree with the conclusions that you and the authors have arrived at. You don’t seem to understand that repeating something over and over, is not going to make it become fact. Did you bother reading the links I provided with regards to brain sex? FYI: Again, I linked to 2 of the most recent (as in 2014-2015, not 1995 and 2000) brain sex studies done by very credible medical sciences professionals.

            You then went on to talk in circles for one big fat long paragraph. To that, I repeat myself in saying that the medical sciences community has not yet been able to 100% determine how to identify a female or male brain other than to exam the body (biological sex) from which the brain came from or is in. Right now in 2017, that IS a FACT! You can talk in circles all day and night but the fact remains that we can not look at a brain scan of any kind, and be sure or even close to sure, what sex the brain belongs to.

            At the end of the day, we both know that the ONLY reason this conversation is taking place is because trans people are SO VERY desperate to find ANYTHING you can hold up as being proof that you are the same as the cisgender people you identify with and that you are not crazy/mentally ill as some people (not me) claim you are.

            The sad truth is that even IF someday, sooner or later, medical science proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a trans woman does have a biologically female brain, that would still NOT change the reality of your biological body and how that affects your relationship prospects and social perception. Evidence of this can be found in just asking one simple question to cisgender people such as myself: If at a really young age (before experiencing puberty and life in general), the female brain of a biological female such as Kylie Jenner (just for the sake of an example) were transplanted into the male body (the same young age) of a biological male such as Justin Bieber; would most straight cisgender males who do now, still desire to sexually/romantically be with Kylie as they do now? The answer is a HELL NO!!! Her female brain inside of a biologically male body would be EXACTLY that which you and other trans people are trying to claim is factual with transgender women (I always say trans women but of course the same applies to trans men). If you take a REAL and HONEST look at the scenario I just created, then perhaps you can begin to understand what the transgender women being the same as cisgender women argument looks like from out POV (WHEN it comes to thoughts of relationships/romance).

            “Many experts in the Transgender world (by experts I mean medical experts rather than transpeople that have done a lot of research) use this as an example that helps prove that gender is a biological trait rather than a learned trait.”

            I brought up crazy Dr. Money for the exact reasons I described in that post. Now here, you’re arguing something that I have never argued against. Where did you read me state that gender is a “learned trait” anywhere here??? I did no such thing and in fact, I explained exactly what the majority of the medical sciences community says about gender identity in transgender people. This leads me to wonder why you even brought this up as if to just fill the page with more text.

            Perhaps you are ignoring the foundation on which I stand on. Or perhaps you just don’t understand even though I’ve made it very clear throughout my comments here:

            1) Transgender women (applies to trans men as well) are not the biological sex that matches their gender/gender identity.

            2) Medical science does not know exactly what causes some people to be born transgender. But what they do know is that YES it is biological just like homosexuality because they both are natural occurrences within the brain, as in they are not manufactured by way of social influence, etc.

            3) HRT and or SRS, can NOT change your biological sex because biologically means a natural occurrence, something that is not manufactured.

            4) The definition of transgender is that your biological sex does not match your gender/gender identity. If you are a transwoman, then your biological sex is male. No matter how hurtful and unwanted that reality is, it is a reality.

            5) Most people are sexually attracted to other people based upon the biological sex of other people, more so/above the gender identity of other people. A trans person who looks like a beautiful cisgender woman and attracts men does not negate the above because a false assumption is not equal to factuality. The false assumption would be that when straight men meet a beautiful looking woman, they assume that she is a biological female because far less than 0.1% of our nation, is transgender and even far less are transwomen that “pass” very well and look very beautiful.

            6) Gender and biological sex aka sex, are NOT the same things. Gender is of the mind. It is WHO you are. Biological sex is your physical anatomy. It is WHAT you are.

            Everything that I’ve written here, is basically based upon those 6 components. Nothing less and nothing more.

  39. Could it be that terms are not being interpreted correctly? There is no gene in human DNA that determines it to be homosexual (sexual preference) or transgender (gender identity). It is rather how a gene expresses itself that would make such things possible. Different factors can affect gene expression in translation and transcription which would in development possibly change hormones, neural pathways in cell development etc. Ultimately our habits determine who we are because of neuroplasticity which is the change in neural pathways and synapses that occurs due to certain factors, like behavior, environment, or neural processes. During such changes, the brain engages in synaptic pruning, deleting the neural connections that are no longer necessary or useful, and strengthening the necessary ones.

  40. wow stupidest thing ive heard in a while almost more stupid then the uneducated malibuguy whos been posting loads of stupidity so here let me reeducate you

    first up your education on animals is incorrect as several species can change there gender
    https://prnt.sc/ez9aa0
    that link will better explain about animals
    second animals brain differs from human brain they dont get the consept of anything much less gender nor do animals really go by gender roles only instint that if you closely study youll realize not all animals go by standard instint most do but some dont

    secondly the only reason you think it hurts you cause it limits your right to hurt others cause your to selfish to accept ppls differences and think everyone should live the same as you that is not how the world works
    as for freedom of speech it does not mean you can say whatever the fk you want reguardless of what it does you dont get arrested for what you say only the issues you create from saying it
    a transgirl should never be outed as trans cause some asshole refuses to accept that they live there own life and thats exactly what intentional misgendering does and in areas causes unneccesary harrassment or bullying
    you clearly dont know any trans ppl and only have a falsely drawn idea of what we are

    as for sex and gender they are not the same sex is anatomy and currently known 4 sexes male female hermaphrodite and genitalia less which idk its name due to the fact that most ppl born w/o genitalia actually probally all ppl dont survive past birth and i cant find its legitimate name
    and gender is your identity or who you really are being male female (whether it matches sex or not is irrelevant) non binary where gender is an irrelevant term (uses they pronoun) gender fluid where there gender identity changes from day to day (uses they pronoun and generally sticks to unisex rest rooms) bi gendered a gendered omnigendered 3 that really doesnt matter to know all about them
    theres many more but irrelevant to talk about all of them cause the only 1 effected by it is the 1 who lives as 1
    the lgbt DOES NOT effect or harm ANYONE else but all you anti lgbt bigots harm innocent lgbt ppl and it needs to end it will end

    always a girl always myself

    1. “wow stupidest thing ive heard in a while almost more stupid then the uneducated malibuguy whos been posting loads of stupidity so here let me reeducate you
      first up your education on animals is incorrect as several species can change there gender”

      LOL!!! Says the Kirstin, the guy who can’t form proper sentences. Again, learn the difference between then and than before you claim how stupid other people are. From your collection of posts, there is NO doubt that you are an uneducated child.

      “your to selfish to accept ppls differences and think everyone should live the same as you that is not how the world works”

      Good Lord! Again, learn the difference between your and you’re. That is exactly the point. You ARE different and we understand and accept that. You are different from a biological female. That is why you are transgender. People like me know and fully understand this and accept this. It is YOU who can’t accept reality. You keep arguing that you’re a girl just like any other girl when that is simply not true. You have XY male sex chromosomes. You have male sex organs (a penis, etc.) and you can seed birth. You do not have XX female sex chromosomes. You do not have female sex organs ( a vagina, etc.). You can not give birth. Those are the elements that separate you from a real biological female. Those along with your gender identity, are the reasons why you are defined as being a transgender “girl.”

      “a transgirl should never be outed as trans ”

      But shouldn’t trans people be proud to be trans?! Then again, almost all trans people do NOT “pass” well at all. Most of us can tell right away, that a person is trans, whether it be from their facial features, large hands or male sounding voice; we can tell. We just don’t say anything, meanwhile, the trans person thinks nobody can tell.

      “you clearly dont know any trans ppl and only have a falsely drawn idea of what we are”

      I’m pretty sure most people reading this blog, understand that a trans “girl” is a person like you who is a biological male with XY male sex chromosomes and male sex organs but feels within your mind that you are a female.

      “and gender is your identity or who you really are being male female (whether it matches sex or not is irrelevant)”

      LOL!!! If it were irrelevant then you and other trans people would not be here arguing. If it were irrelevant then there would not be a name for it (transgender). Such complete BS. You just can’t help yourself with the lies you continue to spit out.

  41. There are very radical presuppositions within this effort of science.

    Most of the effort of this research is to scientifically legitimize how someone “feels” – which uncovers the presupposition that such feelings towards LGBTQ etc. have beneath it an uninfluenced, unbiased source that is mere cause/effect of someone’s biological makeup in their hormonal brain chemistry.

    The conversation here, ultimately, is this: feelings are enough to dictate someone’s claims about their own gender, regardless of any physical signs given at birth. Science is merely trying to back up what has been previously pursued by the philosophical community for quite some time now (no truth/postmodern relativism). Thus, philosophy is leading the way, science is the mere caboose of the train.

    This is a more philosophical conversation than a scientific conversation, and I wish the dialogue would more often be directed toward the former than the later. Science too often seems to flow with the cultural currents, regularly causing me and numerous others to become continually skeptical about its claims.

    The real question needs to be: do we, in this generation, feel we have the authority to overturn common thought concerning gender and sexuality that has been standard for millennia after millennia in human history, among all civilizations? Of course homosexuality has always existed, but rarely ever accepted and instituted and encouraged publicly from the cultural makers and government bodies. The Greeks participated in it privately, but were well aware of the ramifications if it were to be publicly instituted.

    Now many things like slavery, women’s rights, etc. were legitimate modern moral progressions. Those things needed to be reversed, even though for centuries or even millennia there had been commonality in the treatment of women and slavery of other races of people.

    We need to make sure of what we’re really doing. We are messing with what the Greeks poets and philosophers understood as the foundational make up of any society – the family unit. All government and all order begins with the home. If we take the authority and freedom to begin redefining the very core structure of our society, we need to be sure that we want to accept the results. We too often think of the “now” and not tomorrow. We need to do responsible philosophy, and also responsible science. I’m not convinced either is happening.

  42. @Phoenix
    First, I don’t care what a person looks like. If you want to use that argument, then you are saying transgenders who don’t look like their gender of choice should not be able to use the restroom they choose. So if a TG woman (man in a dress) looks like a man in a dress, you are saying he should have to use the men’s room.
    Next, you are correct that these people spend hundreds of thousands to look the way they do. It’s their choice. They made that decision. Why does that mean that I have to change my opinion based on decisions they made?
    Finally, like I said, I don’t care what they look like. I’d rather have my daughter changing next to a vagina wielding woman with a full beard than a penis wielding man who manages to look like Kendall Jenner. I’m OK with my preteen daughter seeing ugly women. Where I draw the line is someone exposing her to a penis. If you can’t understand that, go ahead and start exposing yourself to kids of the opposite sex and someone will explain it to you very clearly.

    1. @ArcherB, Erm, I don’t believe I said anything about whether the way that a trans person changes should change their eligibility for using the bathroom of their choice. However, with your assertion that you’d prefer your wife and daughter to change with a trans man, I suspect that they would have a different opinion, and he would be chased out before gentiles were even a question. Equally, most pre-op trans people that I know and know of would use a cubicle rather than allow people to see what they consider to be their deformity. The others just wouldn’t go somewhere that would expose them like that.

      Also, Hormone therapy is actually quite cheap, as is hair removal. These are the two most common treatments for M2F trans women. On their own they have a massive effect on the body.

      Finally, yes, I expect you to change your mind in the same way we expected people to change their minds when black segregation was ended in the middle of the last century. As in many ways the opinions you’re expressing are very much the same as those levelled against black people at that time. I don’t expect the process to be quick, you only have to see how backwards America is on racism compared to Europe, but you’ll get there.

      1. “Finally, yes, I expect you to change your mind in the same way we expected people to change their minds when black segregation was ended in the middle of the last century. As in many ways the opinions you’re expressing are very much the same as those levelled against black people at that time.”

        More of that trans horse shit. Black people, as medical science has proven, are just as human as white people and any other group of people. A black biological male is just as much of a biological male as a white man. Skin color is the ONLY constant difference. The same can NOT be said about a trans “woman” vs a biological woman nor a trans “man” vs a biological man.

  43. If only people just treat people nicely regardless. Not like you have to marry a transgender or think you are gay because you think they are attractive. Or think of them as disgusting and think you have rights to say something. This kind of thinking I think causes all the hate. Too much fear/hate/bullying starting in school and what children pick up from their parents. People have a hard time changing their ways from what they learn as they grow up and think it’s OK to do so as adults. Grow up means to treat people with respect and empathy. If they did nothing to you. Why treat people badly because they are different?

    Science or not. No right to treat people badly or discriminate others for being themselves.

    1. What you people refuse to understand is that respect is a two-way street. Don’t demand that society treats you as if you are something that we know you are not (the biological sex that you wish you had been born as). A trans woman is a trans woman. A cisgender aka biological woman is a cisgender aka biological woman. They are not the same. That is why they have different words to describe them. By demanding that we ignore your biological sex, you are trying to have us negate reality all in an attempt to make you feel better about what you really are.

      1. then dont. just dont be an asshat about it and give them respect even if you dont believe that way. No one said you had to believe them. just respect them… Im not transgender btw.

        1. Quote from above: “Don’t demand that society treats you as if you are something that we know you are not (the biological sex that you wish you had been born as). ”

          I respond: The ironic part is that we are treated as the gender we present at. We make no demands. The world sees a woman and acts accordingly. For example, the woman who fits your bra at the high end ladies intimate fashion shop at the Mall could be a trans woman. You think after seeing Caitlyn Jenner, or Rue Paul’s crew, and maybe a few people on talk shows, that you have flawless trans-dat and maybe in some cases you get it right, yet we are well integrated into society. It is also ironic to be lectured by some cis person “in the know” because he/she ran into transitioner at their last job and is going to set us all straight as to what those kind of people are all about. I just smile politely and listen.

          And trans might speak out, but after seeing all the gnashing of teeth as evidenced in the comments section, we likely are going to keep our yips shut.

          1. Good Lord! What you still just don’t understand is that most trans people do not pass very well at all. Again, here in the Los Angeles area, we have plenty of trans people. I see a trans “woman” and I treat them as if I can’t tell they are trans. That’s what most people do. Even the ones that don’t look trans, almost always have that trans voice that gives them away.

            If no demands were made then there would be no argument going on in our country over trans people. Trans people are angry that they are not considered by many to be equal to biological women/men. The purpose of this blog is to try and win that exact argument. The lack of honesty you display here is no surprise. Asking you to just keep it real, would be a waste of time.

          2. And what you don’t understand is that a great many of us walk amongst you without your knowing, even between the sheets. I merely chime in because you are so cocksure(!) you have it all figured out. I understand it can be very upsetting to some people’s worldview that we are able to achieve this, but then again, with all the carrying on as evidenced in the comments above, most of us are wise enough to not reveal ourselves. Who would put themselves through that?

            Society genders us as we present, which is as it should be, and all the carrying on how it is possible to spot every trans person is a totally absurd assertion.

            There is a reason some call it “stealth.”

          3. “And what you don’t understand is that a great many of us walk amongst you without your knowing”

            There are 326 million people in the U.S. There are less than 1 million people who consider themselves transgender in the U.S. Assuming you know how to do your math, I’m going to also assume that you understand that less than 1 million out of 326 million people, does not equal “a great many” anything. Furthermore, the majority of trans “women” do NOT “pass” very well at all, whether it be the facial/bone structure, masculine shoulders, large masculine hands, no-curve hips, or the VERY common trans voice. Again, I’ve run into trans “women” and have always known right away that they were trans and simply kept that knowledge to myself as I moved on with my day. That is what most people do. But hey, you are welcome to pretend as if what I’m saying doesn’t equal reality. Fantasy land as you’ve proven already is a place you enjoy being.

            Your nasty comments suggesting trans people sleeping with cisgender people who don’t know they are trans, is exactly the type logic that gets you people no respect. And you wonder why so many trans women get beat and or killed. Nobody should ever have to encounter a situation where they have sexual contact with someone who is the same biological sex as them without knowing it. That’s just evil and nasty as hell for the few trans people that can pass well enough to pull that off.

            Again, you can minimize your biological sex all you want within your mind but you have no right to make that choice for anyone else. The only reason you people try to do that selfish bullshit is because you know good and well that there is a 90% or higher chance that you will be rejected once your transgender self is known to the other person. Yet here you are, actually trying to make it appear as if you’re living some wonderful life in which hiding the fact that you’re transgender, somehow gives you the life of a real biological female when we both know it does not.

            Also what you transgender people don’t seem to understand is that looking like a biological female, is NOT the same thing as being a biological female. So much focus on trying to look like a biological female and yet at the end of the day it is not enough nor will it ever be enough for the vast majority of people when it comes to knowingly choosing whether or not to date a transgender person such as yourself.

            “I understand it can be very upsetting to some people’s worldview that we are able to achieve this”

            LOL!!!! LOL!!!! See my comment above. Also, again, I have no problem with what you people do with your lives and who you do it with just as long as it’s not with me. I’ve made it very clear that the only personal issue I have is the transgender LIES about biological sex and selfish people such as yourself who think a potential sexual partner doesn’t have the right to know your biological sex up front. Everything else is of no concern to me. I really don’t care what bathroom you use, where you live, or where you work and play.

            “all the carrying on how it is possible to spot every trans person is a totally absurd assertion.”

            You trans people just can’t help but to constantly tell lies and twist reality. I never said every trans person. I said MOST! Most trans people do not “pass” very well. I just saw your photo and yes, I can tell that you are def trans which is no surprise because you’ve already made it clear that being honest is not a rule of yours.

          4. I merely pointed out that trans people get gendered the way they wish to be. They move through society and correct pronouns are used. Correct names are used. We we even get asked out. We get married and live in neighborhoods. Hold down jobs. Pay taxes. All without any drama.

            Our identity documents have the right gender markers on them–driver’s license, passport, birth certificates. People think we are cis, and actually we are. There is no lying going on.

            And yes, we are living wonderful lives right under your nose. You keep making the absurd statement most trans people.
            don’t pass well. Apply some logic here. The trans people who do not pass well do not pass well. The trans people who look, act, and sound cis, are for all practical purposes, cis.

          5. “All without any drama”

            Yet another one of your false statements. First of all, you are a much older person. And it shows in the fact that you really don’t seem to be in touch with the realities of younger generations both trans and non-trans. This blog is about drama. Every argument having to do with trans people is about trans drama. You continue to paint a picture of what you’d like for the world to be rather than what the world actually is today.

            “People think we are cis, and actually we are. There is no lying going on.”

            Again, most trans people, LOOK trans, including you. Very few pass so well that nobody can tell. Also again, even people such as myself, NEVER come across a trans person and make it known to them that I know they are trans. Every time I see a trans person here in the Los Angeles area, I assume they want to be treated like the biological sex they are trying to look like. So I treat them as such in all respects NOT including dating/sex interest (that’s where the fantasy train stops!). And oh you are”cis” you say?! Cis what?! Your shady trans Jedi tricks are pathetic. We both know what cis means. We also both know what CISGENDER means. You are NOT a cisgender female. You are a transgender “female.”

            “The trans people who look, act, and sound cis, are for all practical purposes, cis.”

            LOL!!!! Again, looking like something does not make you that something. If it did then a trans person who doesn’t look trans would no longer be trans because you can NOT be both a transgender woman and a cisgender woman. For all practical purposes, you say?! Again, not when it comes to relationships, sex, and having children. I’ve already said a hundred times that relationships/sex/child birth, are the times and only times where being trans vs being cisgender matter a great deal to most people. And again, the word “most” can mean 90%, 80%, or even 70% of society.

            You people spend your entire lives focused on “passing” well and assume that just as long as you pass well enough, then you are no different than the real thing. When it comes to relationships and sex, your assumption is very much wrong far more often than not. Again, most trans “women” have a fucking penis. What do you not understand about the fact that to most straight cisgender males, that is a very disgusting concept that we don’t want any part of?! But in trans world, you people actually think that it’s fair and right for a man to choose a “woman” with a penis rather than a woman with a vagina. Good luck with that!

          6. Hi MalibuGuy,
            I just noticed your comment about a picture of “me” and how trans I looked. I do not ever put up actual pictures. LOL. Always avatars. That picture was actress Katee Sackhoff, Starbuck, from the Battlestar Galactic reboot. LOL

            https://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/6137/52815/uniform11.jpg

            People believe what they see and see what they believe. Your trans-dar is busted unless you are implying she’s trans LOL.

            In the hateful environment in which you live, no one would honestly engage you. LOL.

          7. One of the most common and downright pathetic things about the trans logic is the way you folks actually believe that anything you can stop thinking about is as good as not being a part of reality. My posts are still present. All of the medical science facts that I’ve written about, are still here and elsewhere. What, did you really think my posts to you were written just for you?! The truth is the light that must come out of the darkness and there nothing you can do about it. You ignore the truth on Monday and then make up new lies on Tuesday and you actually think nobody can or will see what was here on Monday. Good luck with that.

            You don’t show your picture online but according to you, you look like such a beautiful cisgender woman. LOL!!! Right!
            Really not all that bright. Katee Sackhoff is a biological woman that happens to look trans. BTW’ what kind of grown woman uses pics of actors?! Have you forgotten that you’re no longer a teenager?! Why don’t you try googling “Katee Sackhoff looks like a man” or “Katee Sackhoff looks trans.” See the TMZ and other links about “actresses that look like men.” So I guess it’s not just me who could look at a thumbnail of Katee Sackhoff and think trans. LOL!!! The more you keep talking, the bigger a fool you make out of yourself.

            “In the hateful environment in which you live, no one would honestly engage you.”

            Oh you mean no one like everyone in my life?! Even with your ad hominem attacks you can’t manage to say anything honest and real. There are a lot more people just like me than there are people like you. That’s why this blog is here. That is why you are here like a moth to a flame. I know I’m a biological male. If some silly group of people came along and tried to argue that I’m not a biological male, I would not have any need or desire to engage in any arguments with them. Why? Because I KNOW that they are wrong. Do you see what my point is?!

          8. Ironically, I now believe him when he says he can spot every transwoman that he comes across. But this isn’t a good thing, given that trans people are such a small proportion of the population. This is because he’s catching so many ciswomen in his transdar that it might as well be useless. After all, any test that detects every thing you’re testing for, but detects so much noise as well that you can’t differentiate between the two is a bad test. At least it is if you care about the false positives (or you’ve got the resources of a government that allows you to do a secondary sort to get rid of the false positives).

          9. LOL! You trans people are too much (of a bad and dishonest thing). You’re still talking in circles, dodging the facts that you hate and can’t defend against. Ad hominem replies because you’ve got nothing else.

            As I’ve said a dozen times by now, MOST trans “women” do NOT pass well at all. And what’s even sadder is that so many of these no-passing trans “women” actually think that they pass well just because nobody said anything or treated them poorly in public. Again, from the broad shoulders, large hands, arms with bulging man veins, to that masculine facial bone structure, to that horrible and so common trans voice; most people can spot trans “women” with ease. But most of us (including me) won’t say a word to your face out of pity for you. Pity for you because you were born with a desire in your brain to be something that you will never be able to actually be.

        2. I don’t respect dishonest people. Why? Because by being dishonest, they are displaying a lack of respect. Stop the lies. It really is that simple. Stop telling lies in order to attempt to get the world to see you as something you are not. A transgender woman is not a biological woman because he is a biological male. Most of society focuses on biological sex rather than gender identity. Trans people know this yet they continue to demand that the world ignores their biological sex and only see them as their gender identity. Trans people have every right to focus on whatever they wish to. But they have no control over what other people focus on, most of all when it comes to making choices about who to have a relationship with.

  44. People with mental disorders such as bipolar disorder, adhd, and schizophrenia have different brain structures than those without. So how can we not call transgender a mental disorder? Stigmatization of being mentally ill is why people want to steer away from it. The stigma against mental illness exists regardless of views on transgenderism. People who don’t want to cater to transgenders want to call it mental illness bc there is a negative stigma relating to it. People who want equality for transgenders shy away from calling it mental illness due to the same stigma. We can still shoot for better treatment of transgenders even if it is considered mental illness. People with mental illness/disorders aren’t treated as fairly as people without. People with unipolar depression are told by ignorant people that they just need to get over it or that they are trying to get attention, etc.

  45. If we grant the conclusion that transgenderism is genetic does that then mean that we stop treating people with other genetic disorders?

    Do we tell the schizophrenic that we see that person too because “it’s genetic”? Do we not treat the sickle cell patient and tell them they should be happy with who they are?

    Even if it is genetic that your brain is different from your body, I argue we treat the brain as opposed to the body. The brain is where the issue lies. This article argues that there is inutero chemical imbalances that may lead to transgenderism. This leads me to believe that, like other inutero chemical imbalances that the brain is the problem not the XX/XY chromosomes. Treat the cause of the incorrect association with another sex. That’s what it is, an incorrect association with a sex other the one assigned.

    I feel that the whole gender vs. sex debate simply muddies the water. It seems pretty simple that there are two sexes and that if you think you are the opposite than there is something in your brain that is different. Your X’S and Y’s are the same as everyone else’s. It’s your brain that’s different.

    The question then becomes do we indulge them tell the schizophrenic that we hear them too or do we treat them for their condition?

    1. @CommonCentsConservative Except they tried that, and it didn’t work, the only thing that worked for Transgender people was to treat the body.

      1. The only thing that helps is to do whatever medical science can to simulate as much as possible the biological sex that the brain “feels” like it should be attached to. And that simulation is never enough and that’s why trans suicide attempt rates are at 41% vs less than 5% for the rest of the population.

        Nothing will ever be enough unless we can take the brain of a trans woman and put it into the actual body of a biological female.

      2. @phoenix

        “the only thing that worked for Transgender people was to treat the body.”

        That’s where you’re just wrong, fatally and factually wrong.
        Look up the polls they did at Anderson School UCLA where it appeared that transgender people , even when not questioned about being transgender, have a tendency of up to 40% to commit suicide regardless of before or after the surgery. 40%, really? How can you define transgenderism as something normal with such numbers that are not caused by societal impact. LGBT is doing tremendous harm by not giving these mentally ill people proper treatment.

        1. The latest studies give us additional insight into the suicide issue. The one I attach here, published in Pediatrics, summarizes rather recent findings. It follows the cohort of trans youth who had early clinical intervention. It also has a link to the full PDF of the article.

          http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

          It appears that early intervention and family support drops the suicide rate to the rate of the control group and that the psychological adjustment of the patients is as good or better than the control group.

          The assertion that trans kids are mentally ill is not borne out by article above nor the more recent clinical data.

          1. If kids are being supported and encouraged from young age to do anything, they will come to believe that the matters being taught are real, just and normal. In Syria kids are being told from the moment they can perceive consciousness, that western civilization consists of people that should be slaughtered in the eyes of God Almighty.

            On paper, sure, in one sense kids can be indoctrinated with the idea that they’re being right in following transgender ideology but, how little significance these papers have regarding the long term, huge psychological complications these kids are facing.

            A very small poll and easily drawn conclusions. Also not more recent. 2014 or 2013.

            Read the Anderson UClA pdf. It’s not recent, same period.

            Bottom line:
            Transgenderism simply does not exist. Changing sex is impossible. It is a-scientific and again it is a mental illness: it is literally named Gender identity disorder. I have never read any single credible argument that should make me believe that I should modify basic biology in order to fit to your subjective needs and viewpoints.

            Stop this madness. Suggesting that a man can become a woman by the snip of a knife in order to make him feel accepted and happy is just absurd, barbaric and pure mutilation.

          2. you lack education on transgenders to sit and try to say somehow everyone is suppose to identify as there birth gender no there not and you will do no good to any kid to sit and tell them that they are req to live based on biology that thats going to magickly mean all there likes and dislikes will match i mean wtf surely ppl cant be that stupid a girl can be born with the biology of a male a boy can be born with the biology of a girl and to force them to live based on biology will cause nothing but pain
            to say who they are is fake or unreal is based on nothing but fake bias bs and has no real science behind it
            a trans girl is a girl a transboy is a boy its that simple genitalia does not ever define who you are and to refuse a kid the ability to be themself and express self identity you will emotionally abuse and even hurt the child this has been confirmed by over 100k+ pediatricians among them is the american academy of pediatrics which has over 66’000 liscenced pediatrics (american colledge of p;ediatrics is an unliscencenced religious group that spouted to attk the aap but there not liscenced or really even legal pediatrics where as the aap are and have confirmed that refusing a kid ability to transition is child abuse)
            lose the bias before more innocent children get hurt over your anti trans nonsence

          3. Thanks Virginia, and that study is interesting too 🙂 It appears that this article is becoming quite the gold mine for links to trans related research.

          4. Hello Thomas,

            Thank you for your comment, but I believe the indoctrination theory does not explain the physiological structures in the brain..

            The original article upon which these comments are based showed FIG2: the BSTc of cis men, cis women, and trans women. The BSTc is trans women and cis women is the same. Surely the trans female BSTc did not become virtually identical to a cis female one through indoctrination.

  46. The best way to fix this is to simply change the verbage. Stop referring to gender as male or female, girl or boy, man or woman… these are sexes. Instead, refer to gender as feminine or masculine… “I identify as masculine although I am clearly a woman according to my sex”. or “I identify as feminine although I am a boy.”

    Now off to collect my nobel peace prize…

    1. for the most part thats acceptable but to trans ppl gender does mean more
      i fully identify myself as a girl even tho my sex is a girl i am very feminine but in no way would i ever be comfortable or safe if i was force to live based on sex gender and sex are different
      the reason there are so many gender roles is cause of sopciety placed roles on each 1 everyone on earth is different there meant to be different not confined which is why nb and gender non conforming are on the rise cause those ppl are sick of gender roles
      as for me i like being seen as a girl i like being girly altho some of this might be stigma related to the word i consider myself a girl rather then a women but in my deffence my first 24 years didnt count so im only 2 😛

        1. i like to consider myself as a girl not just feminine cause everything about me shows i am a girl which is partially how gender identity works i will say this with absolute 0 gender roles (not something we can even picture) things would be better but far different cause gender would have no meaning and no stigma associated to them there would still be transgenders mostly cause of genitalia and body dif

          my point is transgenders go beyond feminity and masculinity it is that point beyond that that determines gender identity its hard for you to understand if your not trans

  47. I don’t understand why the homosexual community is not up in arms about the whole fluid gender identity circus. How can one be a lesbian? How can one be a homosexual anymore? If you cannot “assume” boy or girl, male or female, man or woman… how can you identify as gay? If a woman states she is a lesbian because she is attracted to women… then she would have to assume that those she is attracted to identify as women. Barbara is attracted to females and only females, therefore she is a lesbian… well, throw that at the window because those females might just be identifying as males and now Barbara is a heterosexual. Even in a relationship, how dare John assume that his partner, Greg is identifying as a male today… it is fluid… Greg may be identifying as female now and John is no longer a homosexual but now he is bisexual or heterosexual.

    1. They’d still be homosexual. Sexuality labels are about who’s arse you stare at on the street, not who you sleep with in bed. (because there are many reasons why someone might be sleeping with someone they’re not attracted to), So lesbians are people that live as women and are attracted to people that look like women. Gays are people that live as men that and are attracted to people that look like men. Both sets of people may also have a genital preference, but that doesn’t change who they’re attracted to, just who they’d date and sleep with.

      And everyone can have exceptions without suddenly being bisexual, because we’re all human and attraction is complicated.

      1. “So lesbians are people that live as women and are attracted to people that look like women. Gays are people that live as men that and are attracted to people that look like men.”

        That’s a crock… where did you get this information? Lesbians are women who are attracted to women… not people who “look like” women. And the same with homosexuals. You can’t just make stuff up to make a point.

        1. a lesbian is someone whos gender identity is that of a girl and is sexually attracted to someone whos gender identity is that of a girl (and viceversa for gays)

          im a trans lesbian

          1. Sorry, not true. I have been attracted to females throughout my life without knowing what they are attracted to. Attraction is physical and it does not matter if we know what they are attracted to . When you see another person and talk to them… you can be attracted to them without knowing what they identify with… sorry… wrong.

        2. Ketchasketch, what Phoenix is trying to imply when he says “So lesbians are people that live as women” is that he wants us all to accept the lie that transgender “women” who are actually biological males, can be lesbians. It’s his way of trying to include trans “women” who are attracted to women, in the same group as biological women who are attracted to women. he is trying to sneak it past everyone, his wish/fantasy, that trans women are no different than biological women.

          What he doesn’t want to accept is the fact that the definition of lesbian is based on a biological female who is attracted to other biological females as in sexuality is based on sex, not gender identity as Phoenix would like the world to subscribe to.

  48. We will no longer be accepting some types of comments on this article. We are open to conversations about science whether you agree or disagree with the science presented here. We will not, however, be accepting comments that are personally accusatory or inflammatory towards trans people in general or specific commenters (including, but not limited to, those who have identified themselves as trans). If you have questions about why your comment was not accepted, please e-mail us at sitnbostonblog (at) gmail.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *