In 2016, a controversial bill was signed in Georgia, banning transgender individuals from using restrooms designated for the sex with which they identify. In the wake of this legislation, Between the (Gender) Lines: The Science of Transgender Identity explored what was known at the time about transgender identity, discussing scientific evidence for its biological bases, as well as the social and psychological ramifications of binary gender classifications. Regrettably, both the text and the figures in this article were being abused by those seeking to support their own beliefs. As such, we decided to remove this article in 2021 to prevent its further misappropriation by individuals and groups seeking to oversimplify this complex subject and promote views that lack a scientific basis.
We still believe in the value of rigorous scientific research about transgender identity and encourage you to read the published, peer-reviewed studies that we cited in the original article if you are interested in learning more about this topic (linked below):
- Transsexuality among twins: Identity concordance, transition, rearing, and orientation
- A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality
- Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus
- A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity
- Changing your sex changes your brain: influence of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure
- Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism
- White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormone treatment: A diffusion tensor imaging study
- The (CA)n polymorphism of ERβ gene is associated with FtM Transsexualism
- Should transvestic fetishism be classified in DSM 5? Recommendations from the WPATH consensus process for revision of the diagnosis of transvestic fetishism
We also encourage you to explore additional resources on this topic:
- For a SITN blog article discussing sex determination, check out “I’m XY and I Know It”: Sex determination systems 101
- For a quantitative view of transgenderism in the US, take a look at this analysis from Times Union
- For a review of discrimination against transgender persons, see this report from the National Center for Transgender Equality
- For a more complete discussion on queer acronyms, see this description from BBC news
- For an in-depth look at how disagreements over restroom usage has shaped policy, check out this Politico article
Sincerely,
The SITN editorial team
Can you send me the bibliographies for the research articles you refer to please? It all sounds very logical to me. I would like to share them with people I know who are skeptical of the research.
Hi Liane, All of the studies referenced are linked throughout the article. Let us know if you have trouble accessing them.
I wanted to thank you for this article. I have two trans teenagers. My 18 year old I had gave up for adoption and we recently reconnected. My 15 year old I’ve raised from birth. I myself would have identified as either bigender or gender fluid at a young age if the term existed back then. I identify now as demigirl. My teens are both gender fluid but lean more towards ftm. I have PCOS so I produce more testosterone than your typical woman. I have two older cis daughters who were born prior to me developing PCOS. This article makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you again.
Jesus Christ……
Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. He made them man and woman. Man and woman he made them. Check it out he made me a woman, Strait up. Thank you, Jesus. I love you too. I am a Trans woman.
this comment confused me now my head hurts
amen!
I’m with you on this one brother
These people are nuts. It’s either the doy, the water, or the meds.
Nut jobs out there
Your fairy tale skygod has nothing to do with this kiddo
Yes my child, what troubles thou so?
What on earth is wrong with people? This made no sense whatsoever, you’re all on something or drinking water from the wrong fountain.
What’s that supposed to mean?
Awwen what is sky daddy going to do? send me to hell? awwe because i dont believe in religion. Gender identity brainwashes you? No RELIGION does
Why are you mad
Certainly fits scientifically, I agree!
I’m not trans myself but I have 2 trans friends who I love and accept dearly. I
am non judgmental & totally agree on live & let live. I’m in a same sex long term relationship but like to educate myself so I’m more aware for my friends. I’ve never heard of “demigirl” before, are you able to explain to me please?
I wish you every happiness 🌈
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT2mdDo1vOA
This is a fast one minute youtube that explains demigirl.
Demigirl is where you feel agender (no gender at all) and female at the same time, according to most people.
Demi means half. So Demi-Girl literally means “half-girl.”
Fits science?
Science cannot be “fitted”, it either is or isn’t, that’s the whole point calling it science.
They offer up some theory that gender MAY be influenced by hormones.
They admit that the fact that transgender people, depending on how they identify, take testosterone or estrogen which MAY askew the findings.
That it APPEARS that in the womb transgender fetuses MAY have been exposed to insufficient levels of estrogen.
You call this science?
Pure assumptions, that’s not science, not a single objective proof given.
Environmental inluences, it claims, have been widely disclaimed?
Sources please and proof that these claims are unfounded.
As usual, completely biased diatribe not a single shred of scientific proof.
If this article was supposed to be scientific, it’s laughable, just a string of assumptions of “may be” or “appears to be”, no scientist would take this serious if they were worth their salt.
And no, I have no hatred for transgender people and I do think they should be treated no different , but it is very obvious, that if this article is the pinnacle of “science” supposedly proving that transgender people are biologically transgender born, it did a disservice for anyone with half a brain.
So, because of the bad job this author did, I have to assume, that any scientific case still has to be made and until that happens I will conclude that transgender people are not born that way as there still is no scientific evidence to the contrary.
However, this does not mean they should be treated any different as I do believe they should have equal rights, but equalling what you ARE to how you IDENTIFY as being the same is ludicrous and this article obviously didn’t convince me otherwise, so get your science right and try again, this is just lazy!!!
And this is from Harvard?
Wow!
You seem to be fundamentally confused about science, Vilas.
I am also genderfluid but lean more ftm. I identified as a transmale for 3 years.
How amazing that this article really relates to you Lynda! I’m glad you came upon this article, have a blessed life!
Linda your children need a lot of understanding and patience, it must be very difficult to come to this world with the disadvantage of having the wrong physical appearance. I do not believe that transgender is a mental illness, I congratulate you for wanting to learn more about these issues. I am a cisgender, I do not really know about the problems that family members and trans people face, but I am a university professor and I feel a huge responsibility to do something to support transgender students and I hope to make an important difference in my community by providing help those who need it, to start I’m doing campaigns of respect for LGBTTIQ communities and requesting that there be genderless toilets in the universities where I work, do not give up! Greetings and an affectionate hug.
I’m the mom of a trans teen and you are amazing, we need more people like you who get it.
Yes! This is totally what is needed! We need to keep male, female toilets but include genderless amenities as well! Human rights first, biological females humans rights need ro be protected as well as the LGBTIQ community. Every human being should have the choice of which space to use whilst protecting the spaces of other vulnerable groups.
reading this just made my day. its good to know that there still are good people out there
I remember when it was offensive to take a girl who has more testosterone and brainwash her into thinking she’s not a real girl. This shit is too funny.
I fail to see the humour. Oh, wait. It’s because there is none.
Dang Annie, one guess to what political party you fall into!
You didn’t read the article did you?
Yes, brainwashing is offensive. No, transgender identity is not brainwashing.
Thank you for sharing your story! It is incredible how your case connects to the theories in this article! I was also diagnosed with PCOS during my early teenage years after being diagnosed with multiple other hormonal deficiencies besides those affecting hormones relating to sex and gender. I was totally unaware that PCOS could have more influence to potential pregnancy than just the matter of fertility. This is incredibly interesting, Thanks!
the reason you produce testosterone because your a female, glad you know your a female, too bad it took this article to figure that out.
Hello, I looked through the article and found many useful things. However, I’m missing one, the study it cites that uncouples transsexuality from other mental disorders or problems. I’ve been talking with people, some very skeptical people, who insist that transsexuality cannot possibly cause as much trouble, particularly rates of depression and other mental disorders, without being a mental illness. Essentially an assertion that harassment cannot be the cause of such a bit difference. I wouldn’t know the facts one way or the other, and I was hoping to see that study that proves such an assertion wrong linked here. Where can I find it?
I think you have no idea of the magnitude of harassment experienced.
@Science_Hooker
Ya, but I think it’s safe to say that black slaves in this country had a much more difficult harassment experience and I don’t believe they had nearly as high suicide rates. There have been severely oppressed/violated people throughout the world too with lower rates and even molested children and rape victims aren’t as bad. This article is by no means a definitive scientific study that proves gender can or should be determined by the brain or thatvthis truly isn’t a mental illness. Your article is riddled with bias when you say things like, “gender haunts” and has binary “served us well”. I would say this binary definition HAS SERVED 99.7% of the people VERY well for the last past 5000 years since the beginning of civilization or longer. I would also argue that any gender identity classification that is solely determined in a person’s head is not a standard and therefore leaves it open to crazy interpretation which is exactly what we are seeing in NY where they have 32 gender classifications. This is not sustainable in society and doesn’t serve us well. A lack of standards also opens up significant opportunity for fraud by sexual deviants and criminals, which most definitely will lead our society astray! Mixing penises into women’s locker rooms surely has its dangers and infringes on the rights of women/girls, right? So, I’d say our current standards are working quite well, sonif it ain’t broke then don’t fix it. No standard can possible work for 100% of the people, so the 0.3% will just unfortunately have to conform to the standard and our social norms. Wouldn’t make sense for the 99.7% to make enormous sacrifices to an age old standard to accommodate the 0.3%, right? Especially when there is no fully approved science that can definisay prove this is not a mental illness, right? We simply can’t let the minds of 300M Americans determine gender. gender. And surely anyone who’s mind can determine gender can also determine race and age and even species, right? You can see the utter chaos this would create. Can’t have it!!
i think a little research on suicide rates of trans ppl will do you good
the trans suicide rate flucuates greatly and is actually lower now then it was during the 2010 census whicvh gave us that 40% suicide rate
why its higher for us is because the attks on us are trying to control far more aspects of our lifeto the point where trans ppl dont even have a life in such they commit suicide trans ppl existed for as far back as data shows many to afraid to come out fearing death that fear still exists
it takes great courage for ppl to stand up and choose there own path against what society tells them but it shouldnt have to
the suicide rate drops as low as 4% in safer trans friendly areas but drastically rises in anti trans areas
its not your life to control keep your bias to yourself
Always a girl Always myself
Not true… you can’t link harassment to all trans issues. My sibling was born male, identified as male for a long time. ZERO harassment for the first 19 years of his life. On transition, she remarked at all the harassment she’s experienced in the workplace… but honestly, you listen to her talk and she’s looking for trouble that isn’t there. My sibling was depressed long before there was harassment. I would not call my sibling’s a “healthy brain”. Everyone in our family has depression. Only one ties it to gender. Others have tied it to body image (and thus went down a dangerous road of transforming their body to match a faulty self-identification.) I’ve yet to meet a trans who doesn’t have any other mental issues (depression/anxiety, nervousness, etc.) You’re telling me that’s a perfectly healthy, perfectly natural brain? This ignorance has got to stop. You’re misusing science.
Then why don’t minorities and other disadvantaged classes have higher rates of mental disorders?
Minority Stress is a real thing and has negative health outcomes for all socially stigmatized populations. News flash, there is no more stigmatized population and isolated population than trans peoples. You talk about slavery? It was terrible and inhuman for sure, but populations found social solidarity together. Marginalized people that are also isolated have compounding effects and have little hope, if any at all. Got some real “know it alls” on this stream. Lots of professed knowledge and assertions and yet just googling a well documented phenomenon debunks 90% of them.
http://www.apa.org/pi/aids/resources/exchange/2012/04/minority-stress.aspx
it would be interesting to see if there was a difference between pre and post-transition suicide rates and mental health issues. if suicide and mental health issues are higher in pre-transition people it may suggest gender dysphoria as a dominant cause, I can’t imagine living with the kind of distress gender dysphoria causes, 24/7 for any significant space of time would be conducive to good mental health.
researchers would have to control for abuse, harassment and discrimination as a contributing factor for not transitioning, so maybe looking at the mental health and wellbeing of transgender people pre and post-transition would be more effective. if they’re happier after transition, that may be a sign gender dysphoria is a dominant contributing factor to high suicide and mental health issues within the community.
it would also be interesting to see if there was a difference in suicide rates and mental health issues between transgender people with and without gender dysphoria for the same reason.
please don’t take any of this to mean I don’t believe transgender people suffer massively from abuse, harassment and discrimination, I do. I just feel like societal views and norms can be changed while more research is happening, that way all bases can be covered and there will be fewer gaps in the body of knowledge people are pulling from, to ensure transgender people are receiving all the support they need to thrive.
The problem with your harassment theory is that the rate of other mental illnesses (e.g. depression and suicide rate) remains the same even for transitioned individuals who feel well accepted in their life, family and community as those who do not.
When an individual faces social stigmatizing for no other reason then being denied thier self expression. That is valid enough reason that they would be suffering. The issue is with society, not the individual!
Absolutely Holly 👍🏽
It’s a tough balance to find, loving someone as they are when they are begging you to adopt ignorance as a policy. But I totally agree that ALL humans need love and to feel loved.
But we’re not talking about logic here. People want a “special” classification. Their identity — their need to be accepted publicly — is driven by something much deeper than male/female acceptance. If it weren’t so, we’d land on the gender we “identify with” and stick there.
If someone born male identifies as female. Let’s call her female. Not trans. That’s confusing. Nature doesn’t have multiple sexes. You can be one or the other, but you’re not both.
You mean the way white CIS males are being told by the establishment, media, schools, and now even the government that they are inherently racist, and responsible for all that is wrong with the world? They are told they cannot even comment or hold an opinion on many subjects for no other reason than the color of their skin and the organs between their legs. Cannot tell you how many times I’ve personally been told to keep my mouth shut or to not participate in a conversation for no other reason than I’m a white male. Everyone else is welcome to speak and participate. It’s frustrating certainly, and yes I see a serious problem with society. But ultimately, how I respond to such behaviors is owned by me and only me – Just as the way others respond to hostility and trials is up to them. Life is only 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you choose to respond to it. Yes, CHOOSE. You cannot blame others for the choices of an individual. Have you seen that the suicide rate in white males is far, far higher than for females. Would you also chalk that up as a problem with society? We all make our own decisions in life, and while outside forces (People) can certainly influence our decisions, they can never make them for us.
@Ted
The issues surrounding white suicide are a separate discussion to the issues surrounding Trans people. But some of the problems facing white men are – Loss of traditional roles without having something to replace it; Toxic Masculinity; Perceived pressure to be successful in an environment with increasing competition automation.
Here’s an article on Toxic Masculinity with some additional links, and the origin history of the term – hint: feminists didn’t invent it – for your perusal.
https://www.advocate.com/women/2017/12/11/what-toxic-masculinity
The issue is with society not the individual…? That is so open to ethereal interruption I can’t begin to think I know how to asses that comment. Most people on the planet have issues of “Self expression” welcome to being human.
If someone has a gender dysphoria, it’s not in their body as it is in their head. We need to treat the head with what ever dysfunction can be treated… Not to change the world view of people who’s gender is correct. Maybe then, we can acknowledge this issue and be accepting and not defending an abnormality. I agree with Sam P. above though don’t confuse a position with lack of compassion or empathy because it doesn’t agree with yours.
This subject is so wrought with the “oppression” victim hood, that true data and logic is over run. Political rhetoric destroys the logos. Screaming people putting others in categories to usurp democracy. just watch CNN. Wait, only if you are oppressed. Equal rights under the law, special privileges for no one.
Just wondering what enormous sacrifice society has to make to accept trans people. We’re not asking for much just let us live out lives as we are. We may be a small percentage of the population but we don’t deserve to be exterminated for the convenience of the majority
It all sounds extremely narcissistic to me that so few without much, if any psychological help want to change the WHOLE society and world and take away other peoples hard won rights to make us all conform to their ideas and ideology. Sounds like social engineering from the top down.
The damage done to young bodies and minds is gonna be incalculable in the near future is my guess. This will amke the Thalidomide scandal look like peanuts.
I distrust this “science” which seems to have sprung up simply to try to validate an ideology. None of the Trans ideology or the procedures have been investigated for long term harm. It’s a giant human experiment and professionals are harming their future reputations in publishing junk “science” Where are the peer reviews? I know very rich men are funding this nonsense. It’s all narcissism, untreated, unverifiable and dangerous.
Wake UP woke
@SouthvalleyFox Narcissistic? Narcissism? Untreated? Unverifiable? Dangerous? Perhaps not as I will explain.
Transgender people and psychological assistance.
I’m interested in your research that found transgender people have little, if any, psychological assistance. Your contention appears to be in direct contradiction with a 2019 study undertaken by the University of Melbourne. The study findings reported that at the time of data collection 68% of transgender people were seeing a psychologist and 55% seeing a psychiatrist. The research found that over the previous 12 months 84% of participants had accessed a psychologist and/or a psychiatrist.
Changing the whole society and take away peoples hard won rights.
Are transgender people really changing the whole of society and taking away rights from non-transgender people. Transgender people are one of the most marginalised groups in Western Society. On the basis of their gender identity transgender people are discriminated on a daily basis in education, employment, health, and housing. In recent years transgender people have been demanding rights for equal and fair treatment in education, employment, health, and housing. Literally what transgender people are seeking is a life free from discrimination, harassment, and violence from cisgender people (meaning people who are not transgender). Cisgender people retain all their current rights without loss. The only ‘right’ that I can assume you are referring to is your perceived right to discriminate, harass and commit violence on transgender people.
Damage done to young bodies and minds.
Thalidomide is a sedative that was given to pregnant women. Thalidomide was withdrawn after thousands of mothers gave birth to disabled babies. Let’s clarify this misunderstanding up. Pregnant women are not given drugs to induce the birth of transgender children. Children being born transgender is a natural part of the human condition. Due to your claim of damage being done to young bodies and minds, I can only assume that you believe the misinformation being circulated that transgender children are given life changing drugs and/or surgery. about .
Transgender science – new or old?
Magnus Hirschfeld, a German physician, is considered the father of modern transgender health care. He coined the term “transvestite” in 1918 at his Institute for Sexual Science in Berlin. Prior to Hirschfeld contemporaries aimed to “cure” transgender patients of their alleged mental affliction by (conversion) therapy. In comparison Alan Mathison Turing, is the father of modern computing science. He laid the theoretical groundwork for a universal machine that models a computer in its most general form before World War II in 1936. Therefore, if you distrust transgender science that has been around for 100 years because it is ‘new’, you must truly distrust the science behind computers and everything in the modern world that relies on modern computers to operate.
A final word …
Rather than repeating rhetoric that you have read or heard from groups and individuals who are opposed to the existence of transgender people, educate yourself. You talk of there being no peer reviewed literature that demonstrates the science behind people being transgender, if you really want to find such papers look through the many links throughout these comments. Indeed do a google scholarly search by using the sentence “Research literature on transgender people” – you will get links to 145,000 results peer reviewed research papers and articles. Perhaps if you had done a little research in the first instance, instead of insulting people with words like narcissism, untreated, unverifiable and dangerous, you may have left your ignorance at the doorstep!
References:
Health Needs of Trans and Gender Diverse Adults in Australia, a Quantitative Analysis of a National Community Survey. found online at: http://www.transresearch.org.au/publishedresearch?pgid=kaeii6bh-8b4ceb02-8fd6-41e0-b3ca-73951bacda2f
Transgender people face casual discrimination up to 60 times a day. Found online at: http://www.amnesty.org.au/transgender-people-face-casual-discrimination-up-to-60-times-a-day/
What’s happened to Thalidomide babies? Found online at: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-15536544
Transgender Kids and Gender Dysphoria. Found online at: https://childmind.org/article/transgender-teens-gender-dysphoria/
A History of Transgender Health Care. Found online at: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/a-history-of-transgender-health-care
http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/resources/NTDS_Report.pdf
Speaking from experience and from Data. There’s enough trauma with discrimination, being physically assaulted, being put on the streets, and unemployed due to societal transphobia while trying to transition and afford medical care /surgery for transitioning. Identity is not a disorder. What transphobia causes is ptsd, depression, and alienation. Which then gives us a 41% suicide rate opposed to a national 1.6%. There’s privilege being cis gender and with that privilege you will never understand the experiences or lives of those you’re trying to invalidate.
Sorry friend, but these are every day problems of most people. And it’s based on trans choices. It definitely doesn’t warrant the high suicide rate. The high suicide rate is due to the mental illness and the hormone therapy. As a male with a hormone imbalance I can speak to the very negative effects of a man dramatically lowering their T and increasing the E. it’s extremely unhealthy. Please show me that transition hormones and surgery removes the dysphoria. From what I understand, the suicide rate after transition is very close to 40%, which shows that the “issue” isn’t fixed by surgery. Because the fact is that a doctor cannot play god and magically (fully) turn a man into a woman and vice versa . This IS a mental illness and sadly parents, doctors and SJWs are killing these poor trans by not diagnosing it correctly as the mental illness it clearly is. No parent or doctor would ever prescribe liposuction to an anorexic and this disease is no different! Until their is definitive science to prove otherwise, we must stop with this PC madness and treat this as a mental illness.
So would you claim that the trauma faced by trans people exceeds the physical and mental torture experienced by prisoners housed in concentration camps during WW2? Regular brutal beatings, starved to the point of death, limbs hacked off, grotesque medical experiments, watching your family members brutally murdered before your very eyes… Hard physical labor 18 – 20 hours per day to the point where it wasn’t uncommon to be simply over-worked to the point of death.
Yea, no comparison there friend – Yet even then, the suicide rate was nowhere near what it is with trans people. So how would you explain this? The argument simply doesn’t follow. Look at what life is like in many areas of the middle east that live under oppressive regimes. Death and torture is common-place for the tiniest of infractions, yet people live with it day in and day out. Compared to their lives, the life of a trans person would be paradise. Yet they’re not committing suicide anywhere near the level of trans people either. Something is amiss with the claim that the suicide rate is explained by not being accepted in society.
@Ted That’s a false equivalence and you know it. The trauma faced by trans people is different from the oppression and torture faced by minorities in the 2nd world war, and by other peoples around the world. For one it’s insidious rather than physical, it’s undermining our personal identity, telling us that we’re not who we are and attacking our very sense of identity. Yes there’s also violence against us too, but the biggest drain on our reserves is that for many of us there isn’t a safe place where we’re accepted and we don’t have to be on guard, where we’re not expecting an attack. Living life in yellow all the time.
Also, it doesn’t have to be everyone that does it, just enough, combined with family that aren’t supportive and the children, who haven’t been taught how to deal with this sort of stuff because they’re children not soldiers, sometimes crack and decide it’s better to not be here than not be able to be who they are.
Research has found that those that are brought up in supportive households have a suicide rate that is comparable to the national average.
So, no they’re not going through the physical problems that so many have done, but equally they don’t have others to turn to, they don’t have the physical support of people in the same situation around them, they don’t have time when they know that they’re not going to be abused. So the situations are very different and incomparable to say the least.
Here’s a reputable source for information about Trans suicide, it’s 4 years old now, but I seriously doubt that much has changed to invalidate it.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
@Phoenix I couldn’t disagree more that the WW2 comparison is a false equivalence. You say that it’s somehow different for trans people because their identity is undermined, attacked, and that there’s no safe place for them to go. To even compare this to the conditions during the Holocaust is laughable. Jews were stripped of their homes, then their possessions, then their families, then their very names. We still do not know who many of the victims were as almost all of the records of people were erased. You think that there wasn’t more than physical abuse in the concentration camps? They would have begged to even have a personal identity to be undermined. Yet despite brutal conditions, constant harassment, emaciation, and constant, unyielding harassment they still didn’t commit suicide at the rates seen in the trans community before or after the Holocaust. You won’t win an argument claiming that there’s any justification without evidence for the suicide rate in the trans community as there’s no science to cite for it’s immensity and all other explanations for it are pure conjecture.
Always check the latest science before making sweeping statements, in this case about low suicide rate in concentration camps. A recent study has determined, the rates were actually extraordinarily high.
“The Suicide Rate in the Concentration Camps Was Extraordinarily High: A Comment on Bronisch and Lester
David Lester
Abstract
Previous reports, based on limited reports from inmates who survived the Nazi concentration camps, have claimed that suicide was rare in the concentration camps. Using slightly more detailed, but nonetheless still limited, data from survivors of the camps, it is estimated that the suicide rates in the camp were most likely 25,000 per 100,000 per year or higher and, therefore, enormous!”
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/13811110490271425
@EdgeBiter I believe that you will find that I said that it was a false equivalence to compare transpeople to Jews in the holocaust. It was another poster that was trying to equate the two.
Apart from being aimed at the wrong person you have highlighted the other side of why it is a false equivalence.
Well said Tony.
Ted, survivors of the Holocaust have a 24% suicide rate, according to a 2005 study from Tel Aviv. They also have a very high rate of PTSD. There is a misconception that Jews from the Holocaust were not damaged by their experience, but that just isn’t true.
You’ve also got to consider the fact that the Jews had already formed their identity by the time they were imprisoned. They did not grow up in the wrong body, with everyone around them, even family, denying who they were. Most Jews had acceptance by their families, and at least some of their peers and their community. Let’s not forget that the Holocaust, although unspeakably horrifying, lasted a total of 4 years.
That is not the same as going through your entire childhood and part of your adult life trapped in a body that doesn’t agree with your brain. It is not the same as having everyone around you refuse to believe who you say you are, and having them shame you, get angry with you, and shun you. Imagine finally being able to transition, and then suffering even worse treatment, maybe being disowned by your own parents, called a freak and a disgusting pervert everytime you walk down the street. Having employers chase you out of their establishment and throwing away your application. Being beatup and spit on, having parents scream at you to stay away from their children. What about being harrassed and beat up and the police laugh at you when you try to report it, and asking you how you could expected anything less? Transgender people are murdered at an alarming rate, and believe me, every transgender person lives in fear.
Those are suicide ATTEMPTS surely? Or there are soon no trans people left.
I found this article very interesting -and it made sense to me – I watch a tv show ” I Am Jazz” about a teen born a boy but has felt she was in the wrong body – her parents put her on hormone blocking meds back wen she was six – she looks and acts like a ” normal ” teen girl – she is now awaiting , ” below surgery ” im a 65 year old woman – I went through menapause about 10 years years ago – about 5 years ago I was seriously depressed and non motivated & fatigued- I had a hormone blood test done and found I had zero hormones in my body – I got on a topical dose HRT and started feeling amazing w/I a week – so I personally understand what hormones or the lack of them can do to ANY PERSON !
Well then you should fully understand how dangerous it is for real woman to take hormones to dramatically decrease their estrogen and increase their testosterone, right? This what parents and doctors are doing to these poor kids and I strongly believe it is a big part of why the suicide rate was so high. I like you had a huge hormone imbalance and it completely f’ed me up! I wasn’t suicidal, but I was severely depressed! With that said, this article and the current medical diagnosis of using hormones and surgery should make no sense to you. IMO.
wow you really have 0 education on how hrt works i mean you used the word drastically nothing is drastic about hrt
and just cause your to bias to see reality does not give you the right to disrespect ppl you treat a transgirl like any other girl or dont even associate your bias self to usi am a girl either refferr to me as a girl or dont talk to me at all
you dont know me you dont know my life all you know is your bias you see what you want to see i see the truth
i will continue to live my life how im happiest
Always a girl Always myself
I’ve been out & about with both my mtf & ftm friends and the discrimination, bullying, persecution
is absolutely abhorred 😡
In the study from 2000, they did nerological tests on the subjects, and confirmed, that none of them had any neurological or psychiatric diseases.
“Neuropathology of all subjects was systematically performed by Dr. W. Kamphorst (Free University, Amsterdam, The Netherlands), Dr. D. Troost (Academic Medical Centre of the University of Amsterdam, Amsterdam, The Netherlands), or Prof. F. C. Stam (Netherlands Brain Bank, Amsterdam, The Netherlands). Subjects had no primary neurological or psychiatric diseases, unless stated otherwise.”
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/5/2034/2660626
Daniel.
Thank you for sharing this study.
I know that my child does not have a mental illness. Just because the brain develops its identity at a different time in the womb, than the genitalia, does not mean that there is something wrong with the brain. It is how the mechanism of our genes and fetal development work. It creates variation. Variations are what makes each of us so wonderfully unique.
a mental illness would be something wrong with your brain but in trans people there brain normally functions as it is suppose to
in a trans person the brain is of there gender identity as it is the core part that makes you you however when your body does not match the gi of your brain your brain indicates a conflict this conflict is no different then when you see something you dont want to see or eat something disqusting most cases we heed that warning and move on
for trans people the brain sends a signal like it is suppose to do gender dysphoria is created in the inability to correct that conflict
your brain is everything likes loves hates everything that makes you you but your brain strives to be the best gender dysphoria is your brains way of telling you somethings wrong its not an issue with your brain cause its doing what its suppose to and all it wants is what you truly want because like i said it is you and the only part of you that makes you you
this was probobly very badly worded i was up all night
Always a girl Always myself
If someone’s brain thinks he is the opposite gender than what his body is, then obviously the brain is NOT working properly.
I disagree. I was born with Asperger syndrome which, like gender dysphoria, is classified as a disorder. The brains of people with Aspergers do function, for the most part, normally but there are things that are inherently abnormal with the way in which they are. Being Aspergers, for me, isn’t a case of my identity, regardless of the impact it has on my life nor is it a reflection of my true desires towards social interaction for example. I have immense feelings of revulsion and panic when trying to talk to groups of people I am not intimate and feel similarly when at gig regarding the loud music and swarms of people. I consciously desire to be able to do those things without responding negatively and don’t believe that the abnormality of my birth somehow is “truer” than that.
However, this is just a disorder and not as equivalent to that of gender dysphoria so I’d to make light of Body integrity dysphoria, which causes those who have it to reject parts of their body to the extent of, in some extreme cases, mutilating their body in order for it to match how they strongly believe their body should be. However, these feelings aren’t, from the current scientific understanding, a reflection of the person’s identity but rather the product of their condition. This doesn’t mean these feelings don’t exist but they certainly are abnormal. The same could be said of schizophrenia which is another disorder which causes one’s perception of reality to be drastically altered through hallucinations, delusional and confused thinking. Again, this is not a reflection of whoever has it’s identity or true self but the product of a condition and the thoughts and feelings they may have as a result of it may not be true to actual reality.
Apologies for rambling quite a bit but my main point is that in all of these examples, the way in which the brain functions and, in the latter two, perceives reality is altered in an abnormal fashion. I am not saying that there is something bad about people who have this but rather that the way in which their brain is and works is, for lack of better words, wrong. I feel like this applies in a similar way to those with gender dysphoria. It is a rejection of your biological sex which results in feelings of dysphoria and depression (in some cases). Altering someone’s body to make them appear to be the opposite sex is, in my opinion, no different to amputating a BID patient’s leg. You’re making reality to fit the condition due to an ability to make the reverse work. I’m very sorry if I have said things that are scientifically incorrect and am totally willing to be corrected.
Think I understand what you’re saying, your mind is constantly sending signals out to your body and getting feedback so it
( your brain) knows where your arms hands legs feet are in relation to each other if the feedback is not what it’s expecting ( wrong gender) it causes conflict within the brain
The very fact that someone thinks he or she is the opposite gender is a mental disorder. It’s common sense. This isn’t rocket science, people.
Rocket science? No. It’s MEDICAL science. Which is much harder than rocket science.
“Gender incongruence, meanwhile, has also been moved out of mental disorders in the ICD, into sexual health conditions. The rationale being that while EVIDENCE IS NOW CLEAR THAT IT IS NOT A MENTAL DISORDER, and indeed classifying it in this can cause enormous stigma for people who are transgender, there remain significant health care needs that can best be met if the condition is coded under the ICD.” – World Health Organization, ICD-11 release announcement (emphasis mine)
Actually, it’s a physical anomaly, not a mental illness. If you read the article, you’ll see that.
I didn’t even realize people considered being transgender itself to be a mental disorder until I read some of these comments. I’ve always viewed it more as the mental disorder has to do with dysphoria and transitioning is a solution to deal with the disorder, or is this what people mean when they say being trans is a mental disorder?
Yet I suppose you think better than 100’s researchers and doctors that know this is both biological: hormonal and genetical. Interesting, you arm chair scientists pounding your Budweiser with all the answers.
I’d like to say I highly disagree with that statement, but I have come to the realization that one can not disagree or agree with facts. Yet here you are disagreeing with facts. If you don’t believe in science may I ask you how do you know the Earth is round then? In this case we might as well assume the microwave works by an insvisible microwave dragon that runs plate making it spin as it heats the food with its invisible flames. You can’t just ignore science you disagree with.
The condition of being transgender doesn’t create these issues. The way people treat trans individuals absolutely does. When I was a kid, I would regularly be bullied and attacked by other kids at school because the person who fathered me was trans. I’ll never forget the one kid who told me, “My daddy told me to knock some sense into you before you end up a sissy faggot bitch like your dad.”
The harassment I faced as a child was nothing compared to what my parent faced yet it was enough to scare me into not transitioning until about 20 years later. I tell you this in an attempt to show just how much of an impact external factors can have on a person’s mental health.
Transgenderism doesn’t cause mental disorders, society’s treatment, and opinions toward transgender people is what causes mental disorders. Can you image being hated for wanting to be who or what you want to be? Waking up every morning and realizing that you are not the person you feel you should be? When you are put down and made to feel like dirt, told to kill yourself to make this world a better place, beaten up, made fun of, harassed, told that you are a nut case how can you not develop depression or anxiety? The way society treats transgender people it is amazing that the attempted suicide rate is only at 41% and not higher. Put yourself in their shoes and see if you still have the will to live. I’m not transgender but I have opened my eyes and see how these people are being treated and it is wrong! Nobody should have to feel like to shit for being themselves. They didn’t choose this but some of society chooses to to hate them when they have no legitimate reason to hate.
Yes. I can easily imagine that! Because I’m a conservative and we suffer that treatment all the time.
It’s not only transgender kids who get bullied. Every narcissistic parent does exactly the same to their scapegoat child or children, and it’s a life long exercise. Has anyone bothered to do the stats/percentages on (a) suicide, and (b) comparisons between transgender and the target child of narcissistic parent/s lately? Believe me, we also suffer from low self worth, self esteem, etc along with your main beef of ostracization within a family unit. As an adult you know this type of harrassment/bullying is borne of their own ignorance and fear. Be happy in your own skin and you will be the stronger/better person. Own it and don’t look back just as many thousands of victims from many diverse backgrounds suffering all manner of emotional abuse have to, but only if they so choose. Get over it or it will eat you up and there you will be, just another statistic. Oh, I was 65 before I found an answer to a lifetime of rock bottom depression along with feelings of never having been good enough. Now that’s a Long time to suffer!
Cheryl Jones, both transgender kids and kids with narcissistic parents do not deserve to grow up in the kind of environment that does not support them and leave them with problems of self-perception. You mentioned in your comment that your narcissistic parent/s has/have impacted you negatively (with that negative impact lasting for a very long period of your life), and thus you know from firsthand experience how hard it is to get over that. It is not quite that simple for transgender people, just like it wasn’t simple for you, or any other victim of emotional abuse. Yes, there are differences in transgender people’s experiences and your experiences. However, acknowledging that both these kinds of kids (which includes you, as a child of a narcissistic person) should get decent treatment does not diminish the suffering of either of them. It is also important to recognize the difficulty experienced by transgender people who are recovering from what has hurt them (even when they have finally been surrounded by friends they can lean on and turn to), when every day brings a constant reminder that their existence is scorned and ridiculed by society. At the very worst, they could be victims of hate crime, and they could end up brutally murdered for the atrocity of simply going about their day. Apologies if I misconstrued your comment.
Betty, I think you have to consider what other people think when they discover you are a conservative. If the ideas you support hurt other people and are rooted in inequality, it shouldn’t be surprising that other people become wary of you. Being a conservative is not like being transgender.
Being transgender is not a mental illness however it is an underlying contributing factor to mental illness. As children they don’t understand themselves and their parents and peers don’t understand them, as adults they face discrimination and verbal and physical attacks. It’s enough to make any person depressed. I have a transgendered son and I love him very much, yes I mourn the loss of my daughter every day however I always wanted a son.
I’ve just come across this article via a comment on a fb page and found it very interesting.
While I have no issue with the data presented, it’s not being taken into consideration when assessing the challenges of “trans” children…or adults for that matter.
Anyone who has ever experienced any kind of hormonal changes, whether it’s something as benign as PMS, or changes while pregnant, or menopause etc. can easily attest to the psychological changes that occur. There have even been murder cases involving PMS as a defense.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1991-06-16/news/1991167033_1_pms-richter-defense
My point is this…how many people are going to get a brain scan, especially for their children, before they decide that they want to become someone else, thereby ignoring any other possible causes for their discomfort in their own skin.
Thank you! I was thinking the same
I read your article it was interesting. Most all the hyperlinked references you cited came from the same publication source. Some of them have the same researchers. Can you provide a link to the full studies. Abstracts do not list methods, controls and many more detailed data points. I have read the full open source scientific rebuttals to these research articles some time ago. I would like to do a side by side comparison. I don’t have an MD or PhD, but I am very experienced in reading and understanding what I am reading. I’m a geek like that. Anyway I like to form my own opinions and rather not let an opinion piece inform my intelligence. At the end of the day activists not scientists throw science around as a badge of confidence when they don’t actually know all the facts. Please excuse my mistrust in modern media. It’s not you it’s me.
I don’t believe “haunted” by gender is as appropriate to use as “permeated” would be; it insinuates bias. You misspelled “doled” as well.
Thank you for the considerable effort into your article.
Regards.
It sounds logical? Are you okay?
This is the most ridiculous study I’ve ever seen. There are 2 genders. That is that.
What are your credentials?
This article is bias. Try looking at a critic of the two research papers
http://www.annelawrence.com/brain-sex_critique.html
Hello Billy Bob,
Anne Lawrence speaks for a fringe of people who define themselves as “men trapped in men’s bodies.” She focuses on a group of fetishistic transvestites and while there is no doubt they exist, generalizing their singular affliction to genuine transsexuals jumps the tracks. Her one-theory-fits-all assertions do not take into account the large number of trans folk who do not fit her self-professed model.
Here is conclusion of the original study that Anne A. Lawrence uses in her critique: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/22/3/1027.long
“Changes in these parameters could affect the development of gender identity but not immediately result in overt changes in the volume or neuronal number of the BSTc. Alternatively, it must also be taken into consideration that changes in BSTc volume in male-to-female transsexuals may be the result of a failure to develop a male-like gender identity. In summary, our finding of a sex difference in BSTc volume only in adulthood suggests that marked sex-dependent organizational changes in brain structure are not limited to early development but may extend into adulthood.”
The study is pretty much only says that the development of the brain structure may extend into adulthood. The faulty conclusion that Lawrence is drawing here is the assumption all trans people start their transition in the late 20s or later, but claim they knew they were a different sex than assigned to them at birth at a young age. She insists that this is impossible, because we don’t have a fully formed Neuroanatomy that represents this until later in life. She then makes some blatant assumptions about sexual orientation and the implication of the sexual identity aspects of our brain, because she believes trans individuals are at the heart individuals with a sexual fetish to believe they are the opposite sex. You can see that view thoroughly debunked by respectable scientists everywhere. More importantly, she is attempting to use a sample size of seven individuals to make sweeping generalizations about how anatomy works, even though one of the individuals does not fit her methodology. (She even mentions that within her notes). Her entire premise is that any time trans individuals have a neuroanatomy that reflects their identified gender as opposed to their sex assigned at birth, it had to be because of late stage hormone therapy. But, the original studies that are linked here accounted for that, because that’s an obvious thing to probably look for before you go making scientific conclusions.
In short, her criticism is written top-down, where she went in looking for answers and bent the information fit her model. There is a reason why scientists tend to draw similar conclusions based on peer reviewed work. That’s how science works, that’s how it is meant to work. Because when valid criticism arises, objectivity allows us to reexamine our understanding of the world and gives us an interest into conducting more studies. If there was validity to her criticisms, this would be the new norm. It’s obscure and only used as a weaponized attack on the authenticity of trans individuals, because it isn’t.
Thanks so much for this article. I intuitively knew this article was bogus and that there is no possible way this trans disease could be anything other than a mental illness. This is another example in my opinion of liberals “backing into” science to prove an ideology. It is highly unlikely and illogical to me that a person can be a man in every biological way, but somehow their brain formed as female??? That’s a radical new concept that cannot really be replicated or seen anywhere else on earth that I know of, , whereas mental illness and delusion is not something new and it’s something we have seen and these trans issues align very well with many other examples of mental illness we see, so that explanation seems much more probable/logical to me.
the artical is not bias the ppl who refuse to understand the truth behind it are bias
i know who i am you dont i am a girl its that simple you live your life not mine
dont have kids youll only abuse them and stay the hell away from us if you cant treat ppl with decent respect
Always a girl Always myself
my credentials are… male
What do credentials have to do with it?
That is an argument from authority and an invalid argument. I, too, think the data posted is NOT good as one can easily find contradictory data that stands on a much better methodological footing.
As for the co-twins studies, the actual percentage is (approximate) 3% co-twins are both homosexual and 11% of co-twins are both Transgender.
This idea that one is “born this way” is not backed empirically.
As for the case of Transgender people having ‘brains’ or brain structures resembling those of their chosen gender, read further into the research.
It’s Ad Hoc in that it doesn’t even allow for any predictions consequence. Furthermore, upon studying relevant research, the neuronal architecture functions exactly as it should for that person’s biological infrastructure.
The data and the argument made from it is analogous to claiming that Taylor Swift is actually a man since she exhibits the average height of a male.
That could be true, but unfortunately stands on such a thin basis that if one is willing to justify one based on the other, the sky is the limit. No wonder we have entire communities who subscribed to the idea of a conceptual penis: that one cannot tell the difference between a mangled penis and a vagina.
This political and ideological agenda is going to come to a head in the next 20-30 years, especially with people encouraging parents to surgically and chemically castrate their children because they apparently want to shop in the opposite isle of the Toys R Us.
id encourage you to get some real education on the matter on not just the science that backs the trans community but on the trans individuals in which you ppl keep thinking parents immediatly jump to conclusions based on a sole interest
and thats rarely the case but unfortunatly has been used in alot of false research
that false report of kids outgrowing gender dysphoria put a boy who just likes dolls immediatly as having dysphoria
there are ways to tell the difference from sole interest to identifying differently then birth
but these researches did not take that into consideration as most were so bias filled these ppl didnt even think
any kid with a slight interest relating to the opposite sex was immediatly placed as having gender dysphoria for reasons of such research
however this is not the case for supportive parrents and a trans kid is going to be way more persistent and any supportive family will take proper steps so there kid can safely and comfortably be who they really are
as for research on brain structures and simularities as with alot of brain structure research its in an early stage but there are simularities on a variety of grounds compairing a transgirls structure to a cisgirls however brains are massly different over all from 1 another that to say your brains automaticly wired to your biologic gender has no basis what so ever
ppl are not meant to be forced to confine to 1 group of ppl just cause your born male does not mean you fit into that male catagory body doesnt define who you are and it never will worlds way to complex to force ppl down a path solely cause of how there born ppl need the right and ability to flourish there true inner identity
Please stop with the scare mongering about castration. Yes there will always be those rich enough to circumvent the rules. But for everyone else, the worst that will happen is their child may be put on puberty blockers until they’re old enough to legally decide their gender. Then they’ll be on hormones for a few years before there’s any possibility of surgery. By which time they’re an adult.
Also, given that you’re referencing the co-twin studies rather than the identical twin studies, don’t you think those percentages are actually a pretty good indicator that people are actually born this way. i.e 40% vs 11% or how about the twins that had been separated, but still both transitioned.
Oh, and as for your assertion about logical fallacies, those that appeal to those that are considered experts in the field under discussion, aren’t committing a fallacy. It’s one of the few fallacies that’s included because of how often it’s used to appeal to the credentials of someone that has no relevant expertise (e.g. asking a high energy physicist about climate change). Given that you appear to be arguing against the evidence presented in this article, and supporting comments, it is incumbent on you to provide evidence that the experts referenced in the article and comments are either not experts in this field, or are wrong. Thus far you have done neither of these, just made an incorrect call on the use of a fallacy.
Well said friend! I am dumbfounded what parents, doctors and society is allowing with this especially children who are on hormones and go through surgeries at very young ages! What happened to the requirement that you have to be 18?to make huge sections in life but you can mutilate your genitals at 10 or 12 or 14??? It’s unconscionable!!! I’d say 70% o these kids are trans-pretenders. And why isn’t anyone’s discussing the enormously negative affect of extreme hormone imbalance in trans. There is no doubt this contributes to depression and part of the high suicide rate. Crazy!!
those parents doctors and scientists are going off of experts and real science and facts not your bias incorrect view point of the world
i live as a girl cause thats who i am everyone deserves the right to live as who they are
id suggest real research instead of reading what you see on the media
Always a girl Always myself
A year later I join this discussion
…. Haha. The consequences of this child abuse are far reaching. you blame the issue on society, it sends a message that the individual is powerless and doomed to a miserable existence. My heart goes out to those who suffer for any reason, but demanding rights is not the answer. There are more human rights today in our society, and more abundance than any civilization in history (Jordan B. Peterson, former Harvard Prof/genius). When all other basic physical needs are satisfied, it is odd how we find something frivolous to be offended or complain about (me included – I have some first world prob’s of my own). Many situations in life leave some people feeling “offended” or “uncomfortable”, and people are transformed into
amazimg human beings as a direct result of being “stretched” by the very thing that offends them. I lived in the Philippines for a while and pee’d in a hole in the ground (no actual toilet) with a bucket of water per week to flush the toilet, and crouch over a floor drain to sponge bath. Hellz no I did not feel “comfortable”. (Oh this is NOT one of the examples of offence leading to greatness. No greatness in me. I just had to pee. But there is gratitude.) Agree or disagree on the gender spectrum, but no one should be taught to rely on an entire society changing, protest and demand words that they want to come out of another human beings mouth. We should live our individual lives and fuction from a relationship standpoint. My ex husband was abusive and horrible… Did I stick around and demand he speak words that I want him to?? Or did I choose to cut him out of my circle of influence? Many of these issues arise randomly and in tiny human interactions. End relationships, even brief encounters with those who feel toxic to you. If it’s an employer, sure, then report it. In this polical climate an employer will get eaten alive like Star Bucks of they dare mistreat a transperson. But for day to day interactions? It never worked in any human interaction (except a dictatorship) for one side to scream louder and demand the other side speaks words after being forced by law. This is the immature problem solving logic of a tantrum throwing child.
@Iv, clearly you live in a bubble. You are comparing the discomfort of peeing in a hole with the discomfort of living in the wrong body? False equivalency. No where near the same thing, not even close. Then you compare the widespread mistreatment and abuse of transgender people to one bad relationship you had? Again, false equivalency. Totally different. Trans people are abused everywhere they go. Look at this comment section. Look at the percentage of people, including you, who reject trans people. You’ve actually just said they are asking for to much because they want basic human rights!
Thank you, Jorge, for this sane logical response! It sums up what I have read, thought, and felt about the subject quite perfectly, but it expressed so much more coherently than I could have ever tried to! I was so disappointed ( though why I thought an *elite* university like Harvard would have dared to show less than full trans-idealism support I’m not sure) in this article because silly me assumed it would be based on pure biological science and not feelings.
If this aricle has any validy: https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/im-pediatrician-transgender-ideology-infiltrated-field-produced-large-scale-child-abuse/
California wants to change it’s educational programs to say children are not their born gender??? That is insane and how radically far nutz the ideological movement has pressed.
The California Department of Education and the California State Board of Education (SBE) are currently in the process of revising the 2019 Health Education Curriculum Framework for California Public Schools, Transitional Kindergarten Through Grade Twelve. This Health Education Framework, which is reviewed in hearings and edited by the Instructional Quality Commission (IQC), serves as a guideline for implementing the content standards adopted by the SBE for health education curriculum.
PJI testified at prior IQC meetings in Sacramento in the past several months and works to block controversial content from being pushed on children in the public school system. Download PJI’s letter to the SBE which addresses the legal issues of the most shocking sections of the Framework. These are just a few of the many concerning, ideologically-driven aspects of the proposed Framework:
My Princess Boy (Chapter 3, pp. 43-44, lines 1104-1131): K-3rd grade students are taught to reject gender stereotypes and agree that their “gender assigned at birth” does not limit how they may choose to identify and express themselves.
Planned Parenthood (Chapter 5, p. 27, lines 730-733): Schools are recommended to have Planned Parenthood as a guest speaker in 7-8th grade classes to teach sexual health education.
Spiritual Abuse (Chapter 5, p. 37, lines 957-959): 7-8th grade students are taught to view religious boundaries of sexual activity and views on gender as a form of spiritual abuse.
“It doesn’t even allow for any predictions consequence.”
Such rationality!!!! AAAAH
I actually laughed. You think a person’s brain is comparable to their height? You think parents castrate their kids when they shop on the opposite isle of Toys R Us?
Pubertal blockers are used to treat children, for one. You can’t even get surgery until you’re 18. For two, a person’s identity and their height are two very different things. I don’t think I even need to explain why, because that argument is just so ridiculous.
Well, let’s just stop doing science and come up with a new discipline: Everything Justin thinks is true. No more need for research; we’ll just ask you anytime we want to know anything.
why don’t you quit being close-minded? Yes, there are two genders but a person may feel they aren’t either or feel they are both. I don’t really understand how impudent you can be. People don’t shit on you for being male or whatever, so there’s really no need to say something like the study is ridiculous. It’s just like saying the study to find out what causes cancer is ridiculous. This is what’s wrong with people. Why don’t you just be a decent human being and accept people?
You’re not accepting him for being “closed minded” and being “what’s wrong with people”. Why don’t you just be a decent human being and accept him?
Also your statement about there being two genders but people could feel like the other or neither is a simple contradiction. It’s impossible for there to be 2 genders and to not be either, that would mean there is a third gender, the absence of the previous two.
Likewise while a mind may experience a large number of things. A delusional man may think he hears a phone ringing. The phone does not exist except in his mind. Him hearing it does not make it real. Likewise thinking oneself is another gender or not a gender does not make it so.
“Would you like Pepsi, or Coke?”
“Neither.”
“I NEVER SAID THAT WAS AN OPTION!”
I don’t even feel like making fun of you for the rest of the absurd conclusions you’ve come to.
this is completly incorrect your confusing sex with gender and gender there is more then 2 i know best of who i am and i am a girl i live by my gender identity not my uncomfortable unchosen biology noone ever should be forced to live by biology if they dont want to
i am a girl thats all that matters there is no room for bigotry you are not me therefore you can not tell me who i am
i am a girl end of discussion
Biologically and neurologically there are more then two genders that what these studies st Harvard and other universities show. It’s also documented historically for thousands of years and numerous cultures
Its true I believe your comment because is based on unification lines of original human beings .
What causes cancer is different from gender identity. You are impudent by being too open-minded about this topic. Try looking at it more simple rather than complicated.
Stop being a cunt justin jeez
your arguing science solely cause you want to live in a black and white world not caring about the damage to others it may cause think about it and accept the world is not black and white these studies dont effect you so your reason to argue them is only bias and only causes harm to transgender individual
its easy to denie facts to avoid seing the truth in fear of a change
but can you be strong enough to accept those different then you
sex and gender are not the same this study is about gender identity and its differentiating from sex
Brava! I think you hit the nail on the head. I am a cisgender female but have Trans friends. People who know nothing will argue with you because they feel threatened. They have to deny it out of fear that someone will think they are Trans or Gay. It drives me nuts. I can’t imagine what you endure. Trans people who come out are some of the most courageous people I know.
I am sorry where do feelings or damage come into the scientific method? While it may or may not be black and white science is Boolean. It is either true or untrue. Regardless of who is harmed in the process.
a transgirl only wants to live there life and seen fully as a girl they truly are a girl living there own life the sooner ppl stop all this anti trans nonsence and let everyone live and be seen as them the better
“science is Boolean.”
Quantum states prove you incorrect at this time.
Actually science is not Boolean….its merely a practical means of observing behavior and structure of our natural and physical world. A means to understand how things work basically. And throughout the known history of living things…behavior and genetics of living organisms has been inconsistent and continues to evolve…so it’s important to remember that many things concerning science can and will most definitely change.
It’s ridiculous that people actually dare to take issue with the assertion that it’s either true or it’s not true. OF COURSE that’s the case. Emotions over logic with this crowd, as usual.
It comes in when you break down the suicide rate of transgender individuals, and find that the much-bandied-about “40%” statistic is actually an average, and suicide rates are far lower in trans people who grow up/live in a tolerant and accepting social climate, while they’re far higher for those who grow up or live in very conservative transphobic social climates.
The rejection, harassment, and shame imposed on them by an unaccepting society does cause significant mental damage to them, to the point where they are more likely to commit suicide. How’s that for truth?
…who, at any point, ever suggested that a part of the scientific method involves feelings?
I think you may be confusing sex with gender, Justin. The fact that we are a sexually dimorphic species means there are two sexes. Gender, according to the World Health Organisation, “refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as the norms, roles and relationships that exist between them. Gender expectations vary between cultures and can change over time.” I certainly don’t think it’s helpful to the progress of humankind to talk of there being many genders – rather we should accept that some men are more what we think of as ‘feminine’ and vice versa and accept people as they are. In other words, abolish the idea of gender altogether.
I agree sort of but according to some biological studies certain intersex is a third sex . There are XY intersex people which are AIS and then there are others that may have two sex chromosome, one XY and XX, etc. There are also “Syndromes” where a person with XY chromosomes has ovaries, etc. Sex isnt as simple or only XY and XX. Gender is a real thing as well. The is psychological evidence of it. Its as real and important to a person as money(which has importance due to society). We cannot abolish gender when we naturally have gender identities or not. Having a certain gender also can cause some people some stress and cant just easily think “Gender doesnt exist thus I have none”.
Yes, as with any complex biological system, errors expressing genotype can occur but we shouldn’t use rare chromosomal abnormalities and disorders of sexual development to obfuscate from the fact that we are indeed a sexually dimorphic species. And of course gender is a ‘real thing’ but that isn’t a scientifically valid or helpful description – the question is where gender id comes from and that question is far from settled.
http://www.teenvogue.com/story/teacher-destroys-transphobia-science
*mic drop*
I’m with you, Maria. I am comfortable being called a female because of my biology, but prefer my gender as demigirl/gender fluid. It seems to make much more sense to just have male, female, and intersex, and then realize that genitals do not necessarily make a person a certain way. We shouldn’t even have to identify our sex to anyone if we choose not to. Use neutral pronouns for everyone. Then it doesn’t matter what “gender” you choose to “identify” as. You are who you are and if you want to reproduce, then you can find someone else who would be compatible for that. We shouldn’t need all the gender terms.
No. You don’t get to make up new rules. The 99.7% of us are perfectly fine with or at least effectively operate within the set standard that boys have penises and girls have vaginas. Who the hell are you to come along as the mere 0.3% and try to completely over turn a gender standard that we have had for 1000’s of years!!! That kindof arrogant and selfish don’t you think? Don’t you think the 99.7% should have a say in what we want??? Ever hear of a democracy and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I’m truly sorry about your situation but their are some behaviors that we can’t tolerate and allowing dicks in women’s bathrooms and especially locker rooms is one of them. No gender standard will be accepted by all so I say sorry trans but you must adapt to us… the 99.7% shouldn’t have to adapt to you and the 0.3% especially when there is no definitive evidence that proves this is not a mental illness. We can’t allow mental illness or a person’s mind to dictate our societal norms and rules. Period!!!
you dont get to use your bias view point to tell ppl how to live there life how to identify as or who they are or put fake stats on how many trans ppl there are way more then 3%
you need way more education on gender identity
everyone has the right to live as who they truly are were not making new rules we dont give a sht how you live your life we dont give a shit how you live your life or how you identify stop attking us and telling us how to live our life
anatomy does not never has and never will define who you really are
i am a girl end of story you have 0 rights and 0 education to tell me differently
i will live as a girl cause thats what makes me happy im not living to make
now for stat correcting
there is 1% of trans ppl who were as of 2010 census ciurrently living as there true gender identity
this did not take into acc non binary individuals after a huge pro lgbt movement that percent has most likly went up but we wont know til after the 2020 census asuming it caries on to do gender surveys it should but talks of the uk 1 stop[ping it concerns us in the us
this is based on ppl who are out and happy not the actual percentage many more ppl are closeted and afraid
the acceptance rate of trans ppl last i checked was above 60% in the us
making the bias fks who think a single aspect should define someones entire life a minority last estimated at around 30% with a 10% with no comment on the matter
Always a girl Always myself
@Sam P. As a quick point, the number of cultures that have a 3rd gender would make your statement a lie. It seems to only be nations ruled by the religions of the book that have failed to recognise the binary. So please, take your assumptions elsewhere.
Justin… “This is the most ridiculous study I’ve ever seen. There are 2 genders. That is that.”
Where have I seen that kind of comment before?
Oh, wait… now I remember… “The Science Is Settled… MMGW is a Fact.”
You’re a parody of yourself.
stop confusing sex with gender and gender identity the facts have been proven biology only effect sex and genitalia but not your gender or gender identity
dont hate the real facts just cause your tiny brain cant understand them gender identity is and will always be the real you not biology biology is only body apearence nothing more
I believe you need to stop confusing transvestism aka transgender with transsexualism.
Within the theory of transsexualism sex and gender mean the exact same thing. Gender is just polite way to say sex without implying the reproductive parts of it.
I believe I believe you also stated people should stop using the word transsexual.
Instead I going you stop misusing it and stop telling people not to use the word.
From your comments I have seen enough to call bs on you.
You state you are 100% a girl than state you are a “trans woman” which is nothing but a PC way of referring to yourself as a she-male. You cannot be a trans woman without also linking being a male to it aka she-male.
I just see you as another autogynephillic terf lover helping them trash the word transsexual and the science.
sex is your anatomy
gender is your identity
transvestite is someone who still identifies based on biology but fully dresses up as the opposite sex not to be confused with crossdresser crossdressers just like wearing the other sex’s clothes
transgender someone who identifies as a gender outside there biology
transsexual recently redefined but still misused actually means a transgender who transitions for a sexual purpose
and i am fully a girl my anatomy does not change that all your comment is full of is bigotry and bs nothing more
Actually, no. There have been plenty of studies proving that biology does have an effect on gender (gender meaning people’s behaviour in accordance to masculinity or femininity). Biology doesn’t have an effect on gender EXPRESSION. Gender and gender expression are not the same thing.
in most cases thats due to society truth is way to many cisgendered ppl refuse certain interests or behaviors solely due to gender roles and no other reason
alot of ppl are caught in the middle which when you really look at it only makes sence
but most ppl grow to fear society or fear being different so in many cases ppl over composate by if your born male try to do things more masculine out of fear of ppl thinking there feminine or vicaversa for females
this is more true for trans ppl in hiding also why this trans military ban will cost the us almost $1 billion dollars
we hide when we fear society and to hide we over compensate in a lot of cases this causes further harm especially in transgender troops and can create injuries where otherwise there would be none costing them alot more money in the long run
my point in this most of that is caussed by society your biology really does not effect interest or who you are we live in a damaged world
im not saying theres a mass amount of transgender ppl what im saying is many ppl deny singular interest because of society its easy to denie 1 single interest without it hurting in the way trans ppl in hiding hurt and its easy to tell yourself that you dont like that 1 simple interest to a point where you believe it even tho it never makes it true
trans ppl is not 1 interest but several that go beyond interest to liking 1’s way of life and stigmitation of being reffered to as such
its a complicated scenario but biology does not effect interests or who you really are
The following is something that I posted on facebook to explain what being transgender meant to us, and why it’s a problem. And you’re right, biology does have an effect on gender expression, but not the effect that you’re thinking. If you look at the various comments on this article you’ll see that there are commonalities between the brains of cis people and trans people. Not major structures, not all consistent, but a few of these features are consistent. It’s these consistent bits of our brain that determine which social group we identify most strongly with.
An answer to why we want to transition?
This is something I posted on a comment in response to a question on a philosophy forum. They seemed to find it helpful, hopefully others will too. Note, that this answer doesn’t cover non-binary, Genderfluid, or non-gendered, in any sort of depth, just the basic top level male/female.
Their question, what is gender, and why are people transgender?
Long story short, Sex is what’s between your legs. Gender is what’s between your ears.
In society there are 2 major social groups that people belong to, Male and Female, and people that are Transgender were assigned to the wrong group at birth, so they may belong to the other group, neither group, flit between the groups, or be somewhere in the middle.
The major social group that you belong to is driven by minute differences in the brains of people, by which I mean a few thousand to maybe 1/2 a million cells, which given that there are well over 80 billion cells in our brain is a minute amount.
This was a follow up question asking for more information as to why people want to transition.
Because we identify as the other gender, we look around at the media, advertising, porn, people, etc. and see bodies that don’t look like ours. So for some people that are only slightly affected, being able to dress and identify with that social group may be enough. Other people may need to take hormones to gain the secondary sexual characteristics of their gender (which is the largest group of M2F’s) along with what is needed to remove the visible secondary sexual characteristics of their assigned gender. The last group need to have confirmation surgery in order to fit in (facial feminisation surgery, top surgery – having your boobs removed and your nipple moved, and bottom surgery), of which most F2M’s will eventually choose to have top surgery, but the other two surgeries are less common because they are so drastic, and in the case of bottom surgery for F2M’s not very good.
https://youtu.be/ago78PhUofI
Here’s some terminology so everyone can think before they speak.
Hi honey. I completely understand what is your point but there is a conflict in your writings.
I am a trans-feminine girl. Not just a “Girl”. we need to accept that people all around the world and since the beginning of human history, humanity needed something called “Name” or “Labels”.
The label “Girl” defines a person who has been born with vagaina and been raised like an actual girl that we all know of and define it more accurately “Cis-gender Girl”.
So as far as we are “Trans-gender Gilrs” we should not call ourselves “Girl”. That would create a confusion.
I am a Trans woman. A trans-feminine one and I am proud of that and I will die as a Transgender Girl. I will never be a Girl and actually never want to. Cause I am trans and I love it.
i go by gender not sex tho i may be a trans girl i go by girl and fully identify as a girl what i was born with doesnt matter
ill always be a girl
always a girl always myself
No, it is not a fact that gender is different from sex. There is no definitive study or science that proves that. There is no science that can definitely prove that this is not a mental illness either. The attached study by no means is definitive and it is riddled with pro-trans bias. Don’t believe everything you read and apply some healthy skepticism to it.
wrong answer you dont get to choose what facts are true and whats not your bias does not get to define who som
there is a ton of science to prove you wrong id post it but this sight wont allow links
the above study is not definitive no but it is a real study to conferm theres nore to being trans then whjat meets the eye
i dont live my life based off of science tho i live my life solely bassed off of me i identify as who im comfortable as how i fit in best i am a girl in many ways and i will not let 1 small featurechange that anatomy is not definitive lose your anti trans bias look at the real world im proud to be a girl thats all that matters
lose your bias and grow up world is not black and white
Always a girl Always myself
You can post links, just keep the number at around 3 or less to stop the automatic spam filter (caught by that one myself)
ohhhh ok thats why i was sending like 5 or 6
@Sam P. You have actually read the original article, where it lays out the scientific underpinnings of gender in the brain, and how it differs from sex? As this comment is especially ignorant on this particular article.
That is not even close to what biology is. In any case it seems we’re all missing the point, that being the word gender has changed definitions. That’s all, it’s semantics. Granted the word gender was originally (or at least in the history of modern English) synonymous with sex, it has been decided that’s no longer the case. Personally I don’t give 2 fucks about you doing you. If you say you’re a girl but were born a boy, cool, I don’t know care. I’ll address you as you wish because I’m polite and don’t personally understand why it’s important to identify yourself that way. Like I’m a male, but if someone told me to describe myself in like 20 words or something, I doubt I would write “man.”
A big issue here is the same can be said about Gender Dysphoria, and Transgender disorder. The definition changed. Let’s take take people with body dis-morphia for instance. This is considered a psychological ailment, and it ought to be. They feel something similar to trans folk. Their bodies don’t match what they perceive in their heads. The suicide rate for people with this disorder is just a little larger than trans folk. In fact you’ll find that the suicide rates for people with various issues wherein the comprehension of their appearance differs from their perception of their appearance, or have gereral dissociative disorders is about the same. So this goes back to something I read a few times earlier, that being that saying trans people have higher suicide rates due to prejudice is a conclusion that’s too quickly drawn, and assumes far too much on a subject with many facets. Moreover if it was still called “Transgender disorder” they’d just be one more subgroup of this same psychological issue.
Point being I truly believe we should treat people how they want, within reason of course. I mean have manors is all. But no, science is not on transgender folk’s side in any of these debates. There are certainly scientists that disagree on the merits and meanings behind certain data, but as a whole science has nothing to do with there being more than 2 sexes, or genders for that matter. I suppose I could see hermaphrodites as a third sex/gender, since they’re their own thing, but even they usually lean to a side.
And if the argument is that gender is a social construct, then the meaning behind the different genders people claim to have has even less merit. If it’s all by and large a consensus and not something you’re born with, or it’s just a thing society comes up with, then anyone’s claim to this or that gender has nothing behind it besides personal or socially embedded feelings. And that’s perfectly fine, again you do you. But by using that claim you’re taking away the validity of different genders in any spectrum that is more than feelings or if you prefer, psychological drives. Count your blessings you don’t just have body dis-morphia, where nothing can really be done.
I don’t think it’s a fantastic idea to insult people who’s minds you want to change. Even the most introspective and self-aware of us will usually have an initial reaction to become defensive.
I personally don’t care about trans folk. I mean that in the sense that if they want to call themselves this or that than I’ll oblige happily. However I’m really not a fan of disingenuous “facts”. To what “real facts” are you referring? I mean sorry to come off rudely, but that is not what biology is. Biology can have a huge, or not so huge effect on people. In fact, in most cases it does. Obviously nurture has it’s place and there is a back and fourth of the two.
Again, you do you. I’ll sure as hell accept that. But it’s important we ALL fight our confirmation bias. Every one of us. That is if we’re ever going to come up with a consensus on anything, or make the best decisions. The word gender has changed its definition. That’s all. And that’s why it’s confusing to many people. And that’s cool. But I would put fourth that if it has no link to sex, then what is it? Is it truly just a social construct like so many have claimed? And if so, then what significance does it have?
Biology most certain “effects” your gender. That’s why there are so few transgender people. And to those arguing that if society didn’t hold males or females to the standards they apparently do, then “cis” people would be able to comprehend your position more, I mean maybe, but I doubt it. I’m a male, but were someone to ask me to list 10 words to describe myself “man” probably wouldn’t come up. See, gender doesn’t matter to most people. It isn’t what defines them. I was raised by a single mother along with my sister. But I’m a mechanic, a boxer, I grew up fixing everything in the house – point being I have what might be considered masculine traits. Where did I learn them? You could say it was society, granted I also grew up knitting with my mom, who wouldn’t let me play with toy guns and shit. My idols were all artists, though I did live sports and trained my ass off, I seldom actually watched them. You could say it was my friends who instilled these things in me, but most of them were girls growing up. Maybe it was all sub conscience, in which case this isn’t an argument that can be quantified. Nor do I think it needs to be.
Gender is different things to different people. It holds different weight. Don’t assume everyone is like you and gives such a huge fuck about gender and gender roles. In fact, while there are a lot of rhetorical things being thrown around by people on both “sides” of this discussion, I’m unfortunately seeing a lot more of it coming from those who claim to be trans. And that’s a real shame. I have trans friends and they’re down to earth, honest people. People who admit a lack in evidence, but also give me true insight into what gender identity means to them. They’re also comfortable with themselves and it usually ends there. If you know who you are, great. That’s what’s important. There’s no need to prop your position up with random articles and pseudoscience. You will probably disagree, and maybe get angry which I hope isn’t the case. And whether you believe me or not I really want to help where I can. Now obviously I don’t mean with gender identity, that’s none of my business. But I think if you just said “this is me, and this is what matters to me. Accept me or don’t” a lot more respect would come your way. Because when you claim science and biology as an ally, and I’m just being honest here, you give people easy things to argue against. Biology has nothing to do with your gender.
And no, gender was never anything more than a synonym to sex in our society, or at least since around the 15th century when middle English was a lot more developed and French brought the Latin root “genus” with it, initially meaning type or genre which also uses this root. The verb of said root was generare, which I’m sure you can guess means generate, though the context was usually that of generating offspring. Even the word gender itself was used as a verb to mean procreate, which is why it’s meaning is so tied to different sexes.
Ok what’s my point? It’s the ever changing nature of humanity and how we express it. And the truth is it’s slow, and usually cyclical. People who fit the bill for what we would now call “non-binary” have been around for ever, or at least mentioned in texts dating back to the Romans. Does this matter? I don’t know, most of the time it was related to their lack of wanting to have sex. Do any of these labels matter? That seems to be up to the individual. Personally I find them pedantic and limiting. Why put yourself in a box, or multiple boxes in this case. But again just cause it doesn’t mean much to me doesn’t mean you ought to feel the same. And just cause other people don’t see gender as the end all be all to identity doesn’t mean they ought to either.
And since it has such a loose definition, am I gender fluid because I do stereotypical female things? Do I always have to be eating a steak and punching someone in the face? All of these identity crisis pose a similar issue. It’s easy to live in a box. It’s easy to be part of a community that has guidelines and ethics to follow so one mustn’t have to think. Why have all of these labels for these “sub-genders” What if a man wants to watch a rom com? What’s the point of any of it? I guess that’s not for me to know. I’ve been rambling for a long time and my thoughts are all over. The point is you’re an individual, you’re unique. I bet there are better things about you than your gender. Maybe not.
@SamP you wonder why trans suicide rates are so hi when all there lives they are told they don’t have a right to exist that society doesn’t want to accept them. Government and Church have systematically erased them for centuries. It’s a battle they fight their whole lives some just lose the strength and will to continue the fight and get crushed by the system.
If it’s true What you say what about this stuff
As far as the transgendered issue, I believe that this is a mental illness. You can turn a hotdog into a taco, but you will never actually be a woman. Biologically you are and always will be a man. Just because someone puts on a Chewbacca costume, that doesn’t make them Chewbacca & I feel that we are doing these people a huge disservice by legitimizing this as socially acceptable. It keeps people from actually getting the help they need and I think that’s really shameful.
you cannot change your gender identity anymore then you can willingly change your favorite foods or movies or anything
transgender is not a mental illness your biology is not a deffining factor a transgender is someone whos gender identity is far more different then there biology i sayu far more different cause those only slightly different may not care enough to transition
i lived 24 painful years as a male i knew my gender identity when i was 5 i hid who i was really deep all i ever wanted was to greow up as a girl i liked dresses and many girly things but was to afraid to admit it almost died once (but recently realised another issue as a kid should have killed me due to the extreme discomfort of hiding who i was but somehow didnt i developed severe fatal insomnia for way longer then anyone should have i was unable to sleep wasnt til recently i realised that should have killed me but discomfort is not a mental illness) gender dysphoria is a form of deppression that is created when your mind is no longer comfortable with how ppl see you what you wear things you do but is not something every trans person develops and is created by society
its not a mental illness to identify outside of your unchosen biology but by rejecting who you are or hiding it only creates a form of deppression that will hurt you more and more
the happiest day of my life was the first day i went out in public as a girl cause it was the first day that i felt like me the first day ppl saw what i was hiding for years the first day i felt free
being yourself is not a mental illness being happy is not a mental illness your the 1 who lives the life so live your own life not someone elses
proud to be a girl
First, you claim that it’s all biological. I could buy that, except there’s one problem. You end by saying how happy you were when you went out IDENTIFYING as a girl. See, there are no biological reasons for girls wanting to wear dresses or paint their nails or any of the other things you did to make yourself *feel* like a girl. You gender is purely a social construct, much like being goth or a jock or whatever.
You desire to be recognized as a girl is purely social and psychological. You desire for others to recognize you as YOU want them to; not how society tells them they must.
Now, don’t get me wrong, if you want to go out dressed as a girl and be called a girl’s name and all that other societal jazz, I’m OK with that. I’ll even play along. But once you step into the locker room or shower with my little girl or wife, we are going to have problems. Like others have said here, gender is different from sex. That locker room that is separated by “Men” and “Women” are not separated by your gender. They are separated by your sex. Now, I don’t know if it’s true that it helps your fragile little psyche to actually use the lady’s room. Frankly, I don’t care because the psyches of the biological women in my life are much more important than yours. Once your clothes are off, there is no difference between you and any other man. I get that you don’t want to change or shower in front of men, but neither do the ladies. So rather than worry about your own discomfort, why don’t you take a little time and consider EVERYONE else’s. I’ve made my decision on who I’m going to back.
Oppression and depression are not synonymous. Black females being one of the most oppressed groups have low depression and virtually non existent suicide rates. So how can society be to blame for it? The very definition of self esteem is that it is self administered. If you require others acceptance that by definition does nothing for your self esteem. Suicide rates among trans-genders is just a shade under schizophrenics. While gays do not have even close to the same suicide rates despite oppression. However both Body Dysmorphic Disorder and transgender have extremely high suicide rates upwards of 30 to 40% some years. And both have the same complaint of not feeling comfortable in their own bodies. We treat body dysmophia by pushing Therapy and acceptance of their bodies and we treat transgender by carving them up like a turkey. Neither disorders suicide rate drops even post op. So why are we not teaching transgenders to accept their body as made by nature?
a transgirl is a girl thats all they want to be seen as they commit suicide when they feel they cant be there true self
you can never change 1’s gender identity and even so much as try will hurt them especially kids
let a transgirl be a girl a trans boy be a boy and the world will be alot better
@ArcherB
As transgender people take hormones they take on the physical traits of the gender they are taking the hormones for. Given that this means that M2F people will look more feminine (including developing breasts and the muscle and fat distribution of a woman), and F2M people will look more masculine (including developing a beard, deep voice, and muscle and fat distribution of a man).
Are you honestly saying that you would prefer someone that looks like a lumberjack, with a beard and a deep voice shares a changing room with your wife and children just because they were born a female? As your argument cuts both ways.
Basically men and women are defined by what we see, not what the genitals of that person are.
Also, once the clothes are off, there is still a big difference between an M2F person who’s been on hormones for a few years and a cisman, breasts, decreased body hair, size of the testes, etc. The same is true for F2M people, they have more muscle, hair, beard, lower voice, etc. compared to a cis woman. This is before we start getting into any surgery concerns.
So do you want to actually think about your argument and give it another go? Or are you going to stick to your fear driven thoughts that doesn’t take into account the reality that most Transgender people live with?
Transgender not transgendered. Not a verb. It’s an adjective.
https://youtu.be/ago78PhUofI
http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/resources/NTDS_Report.pdf
http://www.teenvogue.com/story/teacher-destroys-transphobia-science
Ok. Focus on the mental illnesses developed from experiencing transphobia before you start saying we are all mentally ill. You’re not very well educated about this topic clearly. So here’s some resources to shed some light. Take with it what you may. Adios.
So you’re well educated because…. you read Teen Vogue? That’s your scientific basis?
Sweety as long as something is not harmful and destructive It is not an illness specially a mental one.
You need to know that trans gender people are another creation just like many creations of our world.
You can not deny it cause it exists and it is proven.
Actually if you get to know us we are good people and love to love and be loved.
If you have further question do not hesitate to ask
Amen brother… I 100% agree with you. The root cause is mental illness… hormone therapy and transition surgery will only address the symptoms and not address the real problem. This is why suicide rates are nearly as high after surgery as before surgery.
heres the issue trans ppl are confirmed to not have a mental illness by experts you dont get to form an opinion that contradicts facts (well you do have the right to have that opinion in no way shape or form do you have the right to use it to attk ppl)
transgender ppl are humans who deserve to live the life thats ment for them not all these bias fks world strives on diversity not unity
id post links but apparrently this sight wont allow it genitalia is not a defining facter its a single facter im a girl i live as a girl thats that you dont tell me how to live
Always a girl Always myself
You should be able to post links–let me know (you can e-mail us) if you’re having trouble!
it just entered a spam detection filter when i tried to posted fine after i removed it
Hmmm..thanks for the info–I’ll look into that
Your last statement is patently false; the suicide rate after surgery is but a fraction of what it is before surgery. This has been documented.
40+years of scientific research, and every legitimate medical board say you’re wrong. Why not turn your anger toward something to be angry about, like white supremacists and neo-Nazis?
no no no turn your anger towards donald trump and mike p[ence the 2 worst ppl in the entire world
what puzzles me most is that in the name of gender equality , the male and female gender has been labeled and assigned roles and patterns of behavior. So , if you feel like a man and you have female body , my question is how do you know the difference in a male mind and a female mind to be so certain ? Obviously , the name dysphoria means that one cannot identify/or is disgusted with a body part and believes that it does not belong to them .. that necessarily does not imply that you are the other gender. Hence the mental perception will still exist. Anxiety and depression will subside initially with hormone/surgery but the self worth and confidence for a human to perform in other walks of life will be significantly compromised .
Another amazing observation I have seen in the sudden burst of gender issues is the support groups on tumbler for teens . Teens are asking an anonymous person who they are and what they need to call themselves ?! What is wrong in this picture ? Sounds like an acceptance issue. Has any of the doctors/researchers looked into the patterns of behavior of teens before they dismissed dysphoria from the DSM-v?
Here is the typical pattern
Teen is uncomfortable with the bodily changes and is going thru that ‘phase’ of acceptance by association with similar gender teens/humans ; instead the talk in schools are all about the 32 genders and obviously, thanks to the media, the teen tries to fit in .. all the talk is about how and why.. and surprisingly connected to anime characters ..
Next the kid tests the waters by talking about a friend and educating the parent
Screaming and yelling at home, depression ,anxiety , low self esteem sets in .
Next plan talk about suicide and get admitted to a hospital to get the parents to agree for a name change
Ask for a therapy dog
Ask for surgeries, binders etc
Are these the future of a society?
Who is coming up with these names and helping them label themselves?
Almost feels like it is all planned to the T
( ps I do know and understand the exceptions and I am not referring to them but to the outburst that is happening in schools and colleges )
I hope the psychiatric association looks into the influence of social media in this strange behavior and include dysphoria as something that needs to be treated before major surgeries are performed and leave the future youth more handicapped to face life for what is worth.
This seems to me like a mass emotional abuse /hypnotization for reasons unknown ( control?) ..
doctors listen to what the parents have to contribute to this before you pounce on them and ask them to accept a confused teen as they are ! How long will you just treat the anxiety and depression ? Time to address the issue and question some obvious scenarios !
Again, everybody has the rights to live and let live but stop self loathing and getting consumed by a ‘gender’ for heavens sake ! One can enjoy life without a gender issue ! Happiness has no gender !
You obviously have no clue as to what being transgender really is. In order to transition, you would undergo a pretty extensive psychological exam, to determine that you’re NOT mentally ill. It’s not as easy as some people would like to make it. I also presume that you don’t know anyone who is transgender, otherwise, while you still may not agree with or accept the argument being presented, you could hear their story and see what they go through in order to simply exist. Being transgender is not a mental illness; the depression, paranoia, and other things that could lead to someone taking their own life come from the scorn, ridicule, and rejection that trans people face because they are transgender. Being disowned by your parents, rejected by friends and family, fired from your job, evicted from your place of dwelling, or being denied health care simply because you are transgender is enough to send anybody over the edge.
Lol, tighten up those blinders my friend, refuse to be confused by 50+ years of science and research, and dig your heels in, it’s going to get bumpy riding that old stubborn horse from here….
ppl are just to stubbern to accept reality they want to hold on dearly to what they thought they knew cause they fear change even when it doesnt effect them at all
change is comming ppl are growing to accept reality and we as the lgbt comunity will continue to fight for a truly equal world
“ppl are just to stubbern to accept reality they want to hold on dearly to what they thought they knew cause they fear change even when it doesnt effect them at all
change is comming ppl are growing to accept reality and we as the lgbt comunity will continue to fight for a truly equal world”
Good Lord! Your ability to correctly spell words is at a 4th-grade level.
Now, you go right ahead and keep preaching about the changing times. Meanwhile, the rest of the world will be busy living our lives, trying to stay clear of people like you. There is no future where the majority of the world will ever, for the sake of relationships/dating/sex, have any desire to treat transgender people as the biological sex they wish they had been born as. It’s just so batsh@t CRAZY how so many of you trans people actually believe that your words can someday convince a straight cisgender guy like myself to be okay with being with someone that is a biological male and has a damn penis. Good luck with that.
BTW’ you claimed to be done responding to my posts. Let’s hope that you can keep your word.
I am transpecied. Ever since I was seven years old I knew that I am a panther stuck in a human body. How awful it has been to live as a human when all I can think of is joining my pack of panthers in the mountains.
He’s got a point but he just doesn’t understand that gender is not biological sex. What he is referring to is biological sex. Not counting the 2% of the world that have an intersex condition, the other 98% of the world are either biological male or biological female. The last 50-years has not changed that fact. All of the things that define biological sex are still exactly the same today as they were 50-years ago.
We get it. The trans community wants change. You all want it yesterday but the change that you really want is nowhere near in sight. A transgender “woman” can not become a biological female and will always be a biological male. Most people in the world, have no desire to any type of romantic/sexual relationship with a transgender person. Exploring the human mind, talking about trans issues, are things that are never going to change the above. What will change is that more of society will begin to accept trans people in every way possible excluding sexual relationships. As I’ve said many times by now, there is no future where straight cisgender people are talked into believing that a trans “woman” with a penis, is no big deal. That is not how reality works and that is not how mother nature works.
“in every way possible excluding sexual relationships”
“As I’ve said many times by now, there is no future where straight cisgender people are talked into believing that a trans “woman” with a penis, is no big deal.”
Considering there are lots of straight men dating and marrying pre-op and non-op trans women, you’re obviously quite wrong. But I suppose you’d just take the bigoted route by claiming they must be gay or bi because they’re more attracted to secondary sexual characteristics than what’s in someone’s pants.
I realize this was posted a while ago, still I need to respond. If you feel that there are only two genders, why are you seeking these kinds of articles out? Clearly you have questions, as do I. While I cannot begin to imagine the things that those who do not identify as their assigned gender go through, I understand looking in the mirror and not liking what I see. That is difficult, I can change many of the things I do not like, and it would be uncontroversial. I would probably even get more compliments. I know that I would feel better if those around me saw the me that I feel like I am. Being a cisegender women is hard enough, the pressure is crazy at best. Being a person that is perceived as one gender but feeling like the opposite, or both, or none would be devastating. If that isn’t easy to understand, here is actual science telling you how it works. Even if you can’t understand the people, or the science, how about just being for humanity? Every living being deserves respect and equality, that is simple.
thumbs up
grr coment req 15 charecters
Okay, a male who has gone through transition surgery is no longer a male, but a female. She didn’t become some third gender.
gender is different then sex and there are more then 2 genders non binary is considered a gender in its own as it means you do not relate to either male or female
all others have there differences not woth explaining them all but genitalia doesnt define gender so someone with male anatomy doesnt need the op to be female gender as many trans ppl cant afford this op it still doesnt effect who they are
im pre op but i was always a girl
always a girl always myself
Seriously! Your attempting to have a valid opinion simply by suggesting your belief? Do you have proof? Have you studied gender and all its variables? What is your level of education or even experience with anyone who is transgender? …….. Yeah thought so!
There’s only 2 genders. Male and Female that’s it. There’s no Adam, Eve and Joseph…
So how do you explain folks who were assigned male at birth, yet turned out to have ovaries? How do you explain those assigned female at birth, who suddenly start growing a penis in puberty instead of breasts?
And that’s not even the point; it’s not about someone just up and deciding they are one or the other one day, it’s a physical anomaly where the body and brain are not congruent with each other. It’s about making the body match the brain. Nobody’s “changing” their sex; they’re trying to make their body fit the sex/gender that their brain says they are.
The fact is there is no Adam and no Eve either. There is a common ancestor species with Chimpanzees, Bonobos, and Humans. Science does have that quality to refute all that biblical mythology. Science has also the power to shed light into the very complicated human brain. And yes, it is very complicated indeed. If you scan the brain of a trans woman (before transition) and it closely matches the brain of a cis-woman instead of that of a cis-man then there is something very interesting and valuable there to investigate further. Fortunately science does not care about feelings and the analysis of brain scans is science – for the benefit of all (not just transgender individuals). Fortunately, humans have evolved a sophisticated brain that have allowed us to develop a deep understanding of nature. That same advanced brain has also allowed us to care for each other and to develop a system of ethical norms and laws that is much more complex and sophisticated than the limited 10 commandments written about 2000 years ago. Mammals have more advanced feelings towards each other than lizards do and that have served us well for our survival as a social species. Science does not have feeling, but mammals do, humans do. I am really excited and grateful that more scientific studies are being made on this subject. In the mean time I will respect and love all. I will also reject bad and hatefully behaviors/ideas. Even if someone considers this issue a mental illness there is no rational or ethical reason to segregate and discriminate innocent members of our society. Even 1 individual our of 300M deserves respect and love, no matter their condition, specially if they have done nothing wrong to others. Love each other please, find it in your hart to love others the same way you have had the privilege to have received love.
I am a cis-gender straigh male, I love science and that is in no way in conflict with my decision to value my feelings and the feeling of others. Loving and respecting trans people the same way I love and respect non trans people does not cost me anything at all. Even if it cost me something I will gratefully do it, however, it really does not cost me anything at all. Its so easy to love. It cost so much to hate.
And you are a republican who voted for Trump and believe in God , right ??
Wow… that’s compelling, Justin! Why are you even reading studies, let alone weighing in on them, when “that is that” is your life orientation?
If you believe there are only 2 genders then why did you waste your time reading this article?
Hey Justin, I had no idea you were such a kindred spirit. Perhaps we could discuss your findings over a double date. You bring your cousin, I’ll bring mine.
Are you unfamiliar with academic citation? Review the listed citation. If you are unsure where they are located, review the format of an APA format.
Some of the research does indicate that for some people there may be a biological basis for feeling more akin to the opposite sex due to atypical hormone exposure in utero.
However the issue is there is no way to test for this in living people – the bstc size can only be observed post mortem. What this means is that many people who identify as trans may not have any biological condition at all. For many it may be psychological or caused by social contagion. The huge rise of young people suddenly developing a trans identity after a stint on the internet or lots of their friends coming out as non binary indicates this may well be an aetiology.
This then leaves the problem of young people being unecessary medicated. It’s very common for any recently recognised or published condition resulting in many people convinced they have it. For example multiple personality disorder and repressed memory syndrome, both of which were subsequently shown to be incredibly rare.
Re the article I picked out one reference which was inaccurately discribing. It is quoted that 1.7% of people are born with ambiguous genitalia. This is completely untrue. The figure is more like 0.3%. The 1.7% figure of intersex people postulated by fausto- sterling includes late onset adrenal hyperplasia which makes up the majority of the larger figure. These are women who in middle age develop an adrenal condition where they produce too much testosterone and start to grow a beard. Thus they were NOT born with ambiguous gentialia. They were born with entirely typical female genitalia. It’s contentious to include them as intersex when they developed a hormones condition in adulthood. It’s largely a political move to classify them in this way to try to bump up the figures for intersex people.
“The huge rise of young people suddenly developing a trans identity after a stint on the internet or lots of their friends coming out as non binary…”
Wait, let me get this right… when people feel empowered to come out of the closet… more people come out of the closet?! I AM SHOCKED.
Not to mention, how many people in the pre-social-media era knew something was wrong, but didn’t have a name (gender dysphoria) for their condition or any idea that there was a way to solve it? I mean, in the absence of the internet, how would you go about looking up “I’m a boy but I feel like I’m a girl”? You’re born into a body, and without any resource readily available to tell you otherwise, would it really occur to you that there might be medical treatments to change that?
The internet and social media have merely provided a means of more broadly disseminating information, and thus those with gender dysphoria are able to find a name for their issue, talk to others with it, and find ways to treat it (usually hormone replacement therapy, sometimes surgery). I’m sure some cases are due to misattribution (e.g. an effeminate boy wonders why he likes playing with dolls when his peers play sports, and when he looks it up he sees “transgender” and wonders if that’s his issue, when he’s really just an effeminate boy), but I’m reasonably certain those cases are in the minority, especially given that the suicide rate for transgender people dramatically decreases post-treatment, and there are very few who “de-transition”.
#shook #omgdidntseethatcoming
It’s also been documented that hormones don’t have as much to do with being trans as previously thought.; some people had the condition who never had hormone replacement.
Is this your real reasoning for your request or is it simply to drive home your political beliefs so that way you can belittle those with opposing views? Then that makes it bias nitpicking and not true research. I’m only asking so I can understand what realm this is and take this seriously as non bias true facial information.
The article is written under the umbrella of Harvard University and yet I see no in-text citations! For example, a statement like this, “Several studies confirmed previous findings, showing once more that transgender people appear to be born with brains more similar to gender with which they identify, rather than the one to which they were assigned” should be supported with a couple of references.
Hi Charles, our blog style is to provide references in the form of hyperlinks rather than in-text citations or bibliographies; they’re a little more accessible. You’ll notice that the words “Several” and “studies” in the sentence you quoted above link to studies that provide support for the author’s claim.
It’s not logical at all. The logic behind this article is that transgender people might get offended if you point out that it’s not normal and a disorder, so we have to pretend that it’s normal because their feelings are more important than facts.
She then uses empty facts and flawed logic couched in scientific terms to full the reader into overlooking the obvious problems.
0.3% of the population think they’re a different gender than they really are. That’s not normal, that’s a disorder.
This article: provides significant explanation and links to peer reviewed studies to support the premise of transgender people existing.
Neil Raymond: this information does not match my previously held beliefs and is therefore invalid.
No one is claiming that being transgender is “normal”. It’s not “normal” for a man to be taller than 6’8″, but Shaquille O’Neal is and he isn’t any worse of a person for it. It isn’t “normal” for a child to be born diabetic. I had a friend growing up who was diabetic and wasn’t any less of a person for it.
This entire phenomena is caused by Societal norms being enforced on children, we do not have to conform to anything, but we must respect the body we are born into. Dress and act as you wish, society has to educate itself to accept these differences, in South Pacific Islands it is automatically accepted and in Native cultures also, we are the ones developing the dysphoria in our children and lives. The pharmaceutical companies are growing rich perpetuating the surgeries and hormones one becomes defendant on for life. We should be free to be who we are and never feel our body is against our brain, that dysphoria is fabricated by the system we live in.
Freedom means being subject to much manipulation in our society and this is one of those that un fortunately will destroy many before we educate our civilization on the benefits of acceptance of any gender assumption we partake in.
Is there any place I can reach you for this?
God to understand the Holy Spirit which we believe of our theological virtue many issues of Christian ethics. Some distinctive liberal reason is the moral acts of reality avoiding mistakes.
In others, Aquinas view that it continues of completely historical our mystery in the practices. As with the philosopher insisted the existence of God and moral order more certainly we know than the critics of belief.
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Faith vs. Fact
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The blood of bashers somehow in world’s best- known the “pocket” there is we can all ask is ‘Why?’ had no needs explaining.’What’s within it?’ every time you ask quite ludicrous feel that while would be better off never not be poor.
But she is tricky exasperating with your hand either. “Very true” which I can recollect eye-witness though we cannot of our prettiest creature is of the old tapestry.
A heretic is a man who are too much familiar of the most important part of our life. In the autumn preaching there’s our dualistic as we visually that goes to think they became his carnation of these feminine ideal and the arts.
Today, his cheeks comes asking for when I thought I could not go on. How can a women ‘musculature’ present a natural fecundity as much of sexuality.
It affects woman who are trying to conceive using hormonal birth control.
We acknowledge that our awareness ‘chemo’ your libido a boost gynaecological as the sympto-thermal and muco-thermic from a WHO study description has been reported. Human effects of utero-vaginal tract programmes briefly of the different but comparisons more engagement and time to learn of this review.
Acronyms are pronounced as words.
I’m confused; this article implies that biological sex should not be used to determine gender (i.e. gender exists completely independently from the appearance of external genetalia). Why then, is the treatment for transgender people to surgically and chemically alter the appearance of their physical body, the very body upon which gender identity is separated from? To me, that’s completely contradictory. Is there an explanation for this?
That’s for the individual to be able to live more comfortably with themselves. Also, it lets them be able to live freely. That isn’t always the case, because not everyone chooses to go through HRT and surgery. Some people are fine with their bodies and just change their name and pronouns. On the other hand, due to how the world is, they’d have a lot harder of a time being taken seriously. Surgery and hormones let the individual blend in and feel “normal”. Yes, it’s a gender thing and not a biological sex issue, but by changing their body’s appearance to align with their gender, they get go through their life easier.
To shorten it up, it’s for them to feel closer to themself and for society to perceive them without judgement.
Instead of classifying brains as male or female, why not embrace the diversity of brains in a particular sex and accept that whatever brain that inhabits a body, be it a male or female body, is the brain of that corresponding sex.
It would also be interesting to see a study of the brains of ultra-femme men and butch women to see if they are similar to the majority of brains of the opposite sex. In addition to that, compare them to the brains of transgender individuals of their corresponding biological sex.
Cheryl Li, I like your ideas about the comparative studies. If you don’t mind, and if you have by now found some new articles, would you share your research on the different possible studies you mentioned thus far? Links and Article Heads would be great. It’s nice to see some similar thoughts on the topic (in addition to a few other posts here).
If we have male and female brains and the cause of transgender or transexuality is “Biological” then this blows up the entire argument that gender is a “social construct”
But we don’t have male and female brains unless we choose to label them that way. At best there is greater diversity in male brains and female brains than previously supposed and gender roles are too rigid.
Yes and no. Both could be true. Brain studies show that whilst overall in populations there are some differences in male and female brains across the population, most people are in the middle.
Think of height – men are overall taller than women but there are many taller women and shorter men. We would not say that a 6′ woman was a man just because she had a more make typical height.
Even if there is a biological spectrum of masculine and feminine it is certain that gender roles are very much socialised as well. The idea that we are a blank slate and socialisation is everything is I think untrue. However socialisation can also play a large role as does culture in general.
Alas, it does not work that way. Mostly transsexual do not want to embrace the proposed diversity, although that is the right of people who do wish to and I support their right to express themselves in that way 100% as a basic human right. Transsexual suffer from dysphoria which can be compared to having a throbbing psychic toothache, or if you have the good fortune of never having had a toothache, then maybe a persistent itch you cannot scratch.
There is psychological damage that transsexuals go through. We have some of the highest rates of suicide of any group and suffer a high rate of homicide. This stems from societal rejection (sometimes from nuclear families) and from the persistent feeling that our bodies and social roles are plain wrong. However, with treatment, we can get relief. and the longitudinal outcomes are good as report recently in the prestigious journal “Pediatrics.”
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
My sincere hope is that another generation does not have to go through an irreversible and disfiguring puberty before getting medical help. Dr. Norman Spack, MD, now in retirement it seems, over at Boston Child Hospital and affiliated with Harvard Medical School has been instrumental in bringing what is often called the Dutch Protocol to help trans youth.
In short, we do not need to study these children and leave them in bodies they loath. We need to help them.
Many children feel like they are transgender simply because they don’t fit into the gender roles given to them perfectly, and grow out of it. It would be infinitely more harmful to children to force transitions because they feel like they’re the opposite sex than to wait until after puberty. Children are unreliable, and the younger they are the more unreliable they are. When i was 2 I referred to myself as a girl because I had it in my mind that only girls liked cooking, and I loved my sister’s easy bake. Thank God my parents didn’t force me to live like a girl just because I insisted for months that I was one.
Hello Ty,
It would be wise for all of us to use “I” statements and not to generalize about others or about “harm.”
Here are my “I” statements. I was assigned boy at birth. I asserted myself to be a girl at 2-1/2. I did not grow out of it. I was deeply harmed by having to go through an irreversible and disfiguring male puberty. I was reliable in my assertions. I was not a girl because I liked “cooking.” I hate my parents because they forced me to live like a boy.
I insisted I was a girl for 20 years and your 30 days playing with an easy bake oven testimony a hollow testimony to the real pain than real transsexuals dealt with for decades. Stop forcing your false narratives down the throats of real transsexuals.
Shame on you!
V-
Virginia,
You’ve said ” I was not a girl because I liked “cooking.” ” I get what you mean by that. But what you haven’t said is why you asserted yourself to be a girl as a young child. Can you explain why you did and what it felt like?
You have to be kidding me… Deeply harmed… disfiguring male puberty…. grow the fuck up. You act as if your parents could have stopped that. Lucky for you there is in-depth science now and you can live as you please. Also, that isn’t your parents responsiblity, it’s yours. Shame on you for hating your parents for doing what they thought to be right.
He does raise some good points, and i think it’s disingenuous for you to simply ignore them like that. The fact is that some kids who experience symptoms of dysphoria when they are young will grow out of it, while others will develop into full-blown dysphoria. I don’t think that allowing prepubescent children to make such a potentially life-altering decision is really a good idea. The problem with puberty blockers is that they influence the development of a child’s sexual identity, and administering them at an early age poses the risk of permanently locking a child into a transgender identity that they may otherwise grown out of. In addition, recent studies have suggested that such treatments that restrict a child’s natural development could potentially have long-term adverse effects on fertility and bone health (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172/). The solution this study proposes is to administer hormone therapy at age 14, but not everyone is mature enough to make such a huge decision at that age. The fact is that until someone manages to develop some kind of puberty reverser (if that’s even physically possible), this will continue to be an important issue for the trans community; simply ignoring it or denying that the issue even exists is incredibly unhelpful and potentially harmful to others who are affected by it.
Indeed. Life altering decisions are made. Putting a child through a puberty of a sex they do not affirm creates problems for the person for the rest of their life.
You are right that many patients will decide not to transition, but that shows up at puberty. The kid will decide to go with the assigned birth. But as Norman Spack points out, the 20% who do not desist will be “trans for life.” So what to do?
*Don’t force gender variant kids into gender pigeonholes. Let them find their way.
*At puberty 80% go on to be homosexuals, bisexual, or whatever.
*For the 20%, block puberty and really get into the specifics. Is this right for the person?
*Of the 20% almost 100% will transition and cross sex hormones should be considered at high school age.
The bone density issue is speculative and seems not to be a factor. The alternative is to start cross sex hormones in middle school and some places are doing that where insurance is not covering blockers.
I understand your concern about the 80%, but don’t make the 20% suffer when they have a path, too.
first off no you dont grow out of gender dysphoria but simple interests does not simply mean you have gender dysphoria
and blockers are fully reversible refusing a trans kid blockers at age 12 will do nothing but hurt them refusing a kid to express there gender identity is child abuse kids need to be free to feel free to express and live as who they are
blockers have 0 influence idk where you saw that but no they have 0 influence they only give you the ability to know what you want when you get older puberty is a confusing and hard time
you see clearest of what you want before and after puberty
going threw the wrong puberty when your trans is the worst and by far does the most damage giving blockers is and will always be harmless and safe as proven by the aap ama nhs and many more they dont influence you they help you for trans ppl
the absolute best thing to do
allow gender expression always
if they are PERSISTENT with a gender identity other then there biological sex around or after the age of 12 talk to a doctor about starting puberty blockers these are harmless are reversible and can be life saving they do not influence you however going threw the wrong puberty can and will effect you negatively for life
when they are 16-18 talk about hrt
18+ they can see about srs or other surgeries if neccesary
dont refuse them these transitional rights or you will lose them
going threw the wrong puberty took everything from me ill never get that back so i will fight to stop ppl refusing kids those basic neccesities
Always a girl Always myself
I totally disagree. I thought I was a girl for 20 years starting at age 6. I was convinced and would have liked srs- I saw a TV programs on it at age 10 and thought that’s me. However this was not widely available a the time.
I cried when I started puberty and felt misgendered when straight women were attracted to me because I saw myself as a woman and presented very femme. By mid twenties I’d realised it was not me but society that was the problem. I was an effeminate bisexual man not a woman. But in childhood I had absorbed the idea I could not be a boy and have the interests and proclivities I had. Thank goodness I was not brought up now.
I understand for you it may have been an underlying and permanent confidition but the problem is children are easily influenced and do not know their own minds- or at least can not be sure until they are grown up. For every child saved from natural puberty we risk putting children through unecessary treatment. Here lies the issue. The idea of sterilising children on the basis of an untestable self diagnosis strikes me as incredibly dubious. Especially as many kids don’t know their sexuality till they are older. Many children who would grow up to be gay may misdiag nose themselves as trans before they realise their sexuality
You don’t have to force children to transition, you can instead take them seriously and the doctors can prescribe puberty blockers so that they can postpone puberty until they are sure/reach an age where they can legally make the decision.
Precisely. The appropriate blockers can prevent the permanent disfigurements (assuming the individual is actually transgender) brought about by puberty, but if they later decide that they’re just an effeminate man or masculine woman, they can stop the blockers and their body will pick up where it left off and they will develop as the gender they were assigned at birth. On the flip side, if they ARE transgender, they can start the appropriate hormone therapy as an adult, and their body will proceed with the pubertal growth patterns corresponding to the hormones they’re taking.
I am transpecied. Ever since I was seven years old I knew that I am a panther stuck in a human body. How awful it has been to live as a human when all I can think of is joining my pack of panthers in the mountains.
i want to correct some outdated terminology in that
transgender is what you want to say in that not transexual most ppl are trying to throw transexual meaning away cause it used to mean post op however the terminology was later to define a trans who has the opperation for a sexual reason as oppose to an emotional 1
also thanks to studies and research blockers can be highly reversible now but hrt cant however tho i agree that diversity is great this research can be used to really help trans youth if we can match a simular pattern in trans youth as we did in adults this is theoretical
every like every dislike orientation identity hoppy ect relates 1 way or another to your brain
this could be used theoreticly to determine a guidline of interests by examining it
this is of course theoretical but worth some testing
Totally disrespects the persons real or perceived sex identity.
I like your thinking. I’m on the transgender spectrum. I have an opinion, I have no evidence, but simply an intuition, that gender as an expression is commonly different in every individual. It isn’t until we juxtapose the extremes (very different in each person not dependent on genitailia, but lessen with anyone with a penis and testicals as evident by the difference in tolerable expressions on women compared to the intolerable expressions of men) that we see gender variables of expression exist in everyone of us and are only limited by social acceptence.
I’ve just posted a reply to Sam above where I included a copy of a response to someone else. Long story short, I claimed that men and women are actually just large social group in society that almost everyone belongs to. Being transgender just means that you don’t belong to the group that you were assigned to at birth.
All of the other problems associated with being transgender basically stem from that, as we look at people that are members of that group and at ourselves and see the ways that we don’t conform, in clothing as well as style. At the same time as society is forcing us to conform to this other social group.
I wonder if people see the same sort of reactions in cis people that are forced to conform to a social group that they don’t actually belong to.
” The group that you were assigned to at birth…” I’ve heard this many times. What does that even mean? Who assigns? Are you postulating a higher being (God maybe?) that assigns each and every one of us to a “group”?
The doctor that does our paper work. They can’t exactly ask the baby now can they. They do this by looking at the external genitalia, and 96-98% of the time they’re correct. For intersex people this may also include surgery to make the external genitals conform to societal norms.
And before you talk about chromosomes, they indicate which sex/gender should develop, they don’t dictate it. What determines sex/gender is when hormones are released in the womb. Which is why you can get XY women, and XX men.
If you were at risk for biological disorders that impacted your health opposed to tour esteem, these standards might be relevant. We need objective standards of measurement, not subjective fluff.
That’d be great if it wasn’t torture to not transition due to gender dysphoria
There is a huge difference between a Study of Genes and an Observational Study.
The first one is objective knowledge, the second it is just a subjective interpretation that tends to be biased, or in the best scenario, not conclusive.
So far, there has not been found any transsexual “gene”. Am I wrong?
https://daleoleary.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/the-%E2%80%9Ctranssexual%E2%80%9D-delusion/
Thanks for your comment!
Observational studies are typically compared with randomized controlled experiments. It’s true that observational studies cannot, by themselves, allow scientists to draw definitive conclusions, but observational studies almost always form the foundation of later experiments that confirm findings. In fact, most of the studies of human behavior, nutrition, and longevity (among many other fields) are observational studies. ANY kind of study can be flawed, but we take care to only cite articles that have been peer-reviewed and use appropriate statistical tests and methods. Also, importantly, many studies of human genes rely on observational studies. This is often how genetic diseases are identified, including Huntington’s, sickle cell anemia, and cystic fibrosis. This is because we can’t do randomized controlled studies on humans – like making human “gene deletions.” These would be unethical! Thus, we have to rely on observations that yield consistent results (and if they don’t, we revise our theories and look into something else).
It’s actually unlikely that there will be “a transgender gene” identified – but it’s an interesting thought! However, just like there isn’t “a logical gene” or “a Republican gene” or “a tall gene,” there is unlikely to be a single gene, or even a strict set of genes, that defines transgender identity (or any other form of identity). Many of the aforementioned traits or aspects of identity may have roots in certain genes that affect many parts of a person, and environment can certainly interact with genes.
Hope that helps to clarify!
Thanks for your response.
We agree, so far there is no way to “demonstrate” with these observational studies that the transgender identity is something Biological. In this sense I agree with Marshall, some expressions in the article are just too pretentious (“Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary”).
The studies are very interesting, but don’t serve as fundament of the conclusions alleged.
Hi Jose,
Maybe it’s worth considering that even biological sex is not binary – see http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/im-xy-know-sex-determination-systems-101/
From my limited understanding of your link, I’m under the impression that one’s 23rd chromosome pair determines sex. However in rare cases mutations and abnormalities may alter the number of sex chromosomes, or cause the opposite genitalia to develop in xx or xy humans. Is this correct?
If so, it would appear that biological sex is binary, regardless of the genetic code behind the outcome. If a human with 3 x chromosomes conceives a child with a xyy human, isn’t one a biological female, and the other a biological male? Or are you stating that these chromosomal abnormalities represent different sexes?
That is incorrect. Biological sex in mammals is very binary. The only two gamete options are ova or spermatozoa. Sexual development may be a sloppy(er) process but there is no inbetween gamete that is produced.
So are you saying there is no gene that determines “male” gender and no gene that determines “female” gender? I am not talking about out of the ordinary examples of this condition or that condition possibly having effects on how those genes develop in a minute number of people. I mean on a regular without mitigating factors basis. Because if there is, then your argument of there being no genes for logic, republicans, and so forth is just a way to insult the intelligence of others while in some half ass way trying to avoid answering the question properly because the answer to that question does not suit your personal beliefs. And that is what you are doing with such an answer – mocking others to coverup your desire to not have an honest discussion on this topic where you properly answer questions even if their answers do not suit your purposes. You know the correct answer to that question.
The answer is that there currently is no known gene or genetic marker that can be directly linked to being a “transgender gene”. There are some hypothesis on it, but nothing that can be proven at this time. And as your own answer say, such a gene is likely to never be found. With that we can finally break through to the reality of the situation. There is no gene for transgender. There are conditions that can play an impact on how strongly one’s gender develops as they mature. There are things that can happen that play a role in gender identity. BUT those things are more rare exceptions than anything else. The reality of it all is that we are born with genetic make ups that can be tested and verified as either male or female. This is scientific fact. Any other identity or other such goobedlygook is something completely different. Not saying some people can’t be transgendered or have mental, hormonal, or physical attributes or sociological factors or other life events that lead them to identifying as transgendered, but in their genetic makeup they are either male or female. There is nothing to debate there.
Transgenderism has been shown to have genetic influence as described in the article. But there is no single gene that determines someone’s gender. I hope that answers the question you say we’re evading.
Until very recently, there were also no known genes that determined one’s height.
Just because there’s not a single gene that determines a characteristic or because we haven’t found the genes that determine it doesn’t mean we can’t tell if a trait is genetically influenced. It’s only recently that we’ve been able to identify specific genes linked to specific traits. But if you asked a farmer centuries ago about inheritance, they would be able to tell you that certain traits are inherited generation to generation.
I agree the genes have not been found but when they are that would make transgender treatable inutero making it possibly non existent. Lack of existence makes fighting for permanent rights kinda moot point. It would be like putting the dodo on the endangered species list. Same for a gay gene or series of genes.
Australians did a study that found issues with the SRY gene in male to female transsexuals.
Sadly large amounts of the brain and genetic research into the causes of transsexualism have been conducted outside the U.S because of prejudice both inside and outside the academic world.
I believe the use of the word transgender relates to that prejudice.
I know of no brain or chromosome research that has been conducted on those who identify as other than male or female.
Also consider how the lgbt labels and grouping support heterosexism and for lack of a better word ” cisgender” privilege, as well as homophobia and transphobia.
Here is a Popular Science article about the sry gene link to transsexualism.
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-11/discovery-transsexual-gene-raises-more-questions-answers
Also consider given the social objections to transsexualism which is even more so than to the problematic transgender umbrella term how hard it is to get funding for the research.
Add to that objections by the transgender leadership about studying transsexuals by sexual orientation.
Those who know the research well know transvestites as well as other forms of pseudo at ran asexual a have been allowed to transition. The word transgender comes from that and a hatred towards transsexuals by lesbian feminist.
You can read the book “the transsexual dynasty the making of the she-male” by Janice Raymond and “the empire strikes back a post transsexual manifesto” by Sandy Stone to see there are real problems with the professional adoption of the transgender label as unethical and crossing the line into illegal human experimentation.
Other than humans, has it been observed in nature? If so, perhaps genes can be identified by comparing genomes?
unlike homosexuality, exactly how are we supposed to observe transgenderism in nature (beyond literally sex-changing frogs and such)? you do get that the whole entire issue here is that everyone thinks it’s all in our heads, right? you gonna go up to gay penguins in the wild and ask them how they identify?
Familiarize yourself with statically models a parameter for a measurement.
I hope some people are still on this old article. I am a cis man. I have B.S.E in bioengineering and Ph.D. in chemical engineering. I mention this to – I hope – I am am a “perceiving” rather than a judging person. And that this is a serious question . I am trying to understand comments when people say they identified as a “girl” or a “boy” at a young age. If I understand correctly, this is separate from what sex (and by sex I understand that means outward biology) they are attracted to sexually. I ask this question because other than what sex I am attracted to sexually, I don’t perceive any of thoughts as being inherently male or female. By that I believe things such as “liking to play with dolls,” enjoying playing sports, enjoying dancing, etc. are all societal norms – as is obvious now. So my sincere question, because I want to understand but I do not currently, is how anyone can identify with a particular gender apart from with sex they are attracted to sexually. I saw the whole social club argument, but I am not sure I am buying it. I have both male and female friends, but I have more women friends (and in this comparison I am not including past or present lovers). Again please emphasize I am interested in logical and factual discussion. I am not attacking anyone, and I will not respond to any personal attacks.
Without referring to your primary or secondary sexual characteristics how do you know that you are a boy? The answer to that question is the same answer that those of us that are transgender have. It’s not a logical answer, it’s not something you can examine and say – This was the moment when, it is something that we are.
Yes, research is starting to show that there are physical differences in the brains of transgender individuals that make them look more like their “chosen” gender than their assigned gender. But those biological changes don’t express in nice logical ways. In much the same way that some people are left-handed. If you’re left or right handed, you just are, it’s not something that you think about. Instead, we know that there’s probably some underlying difference in our brains, but that doesn’t matter for daily life.
It had been said that being transgender is like trying to run Mac software on a PC, or trying to run a PC with a (pre-Intel) Mac processor. Sure, there are work-arounds; it’s possible to “make” it work (or so I’ve been told). Likewise, the “work-arounds” for being transgender are hormone therapy and (for some, not all) surgery.
Genes — there are XX and XY. These genes set up the potential in the womb for natal development (e.g. esgtrogen/testosterone exposure) which may or may not be fully received/metabolized by the fetus. Accordingly, sex expression in the fetus is “nurture” in a biological sense. The genes determine sex, but the environment in the womb (nurture) results in the expression of trans-gender.
XX and XY are not genes, they are (pairs of) chromosomes. Multiple genes are found on each of the chromosomes. While there may be certain genes that determine a single trait, often there are traits that are determined by multiple genes. As this article asserts, it may be a combination of genes on these x and y chromosomes that determine gender. Here is more information on that topic: http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask456
If it was a gene it would probably be a mutation in a certain gene not the gene itself
Its not genetics its a birth defect
Many if not most “birth defects” are genetic. Not sure what point you’re trying to make in any event.
Dude, wordpress articiles are not credible sources.
Funny how all of his sources were debunked years ago. Johns Hopkins has in fact resumed performing transgender surgery as of this year. Paul McHugh also tried to convince the world that the pedophelia in the Catholic priesthood was actually gay sex with remorse.
If the development of the brain (as identifying as “male” or “female”) is affected by hormonal input or lack thereof while the fetus is developing, then there will be no “gene” that identifies one as transgender. In the cases of those who have a hormone insensitivity or lack of receptors, that may be able to be determined genetically, but if the developmental differences are caused by over- or under-production of the appropriate hormones by the mother’s body during pregnancy, there may not be a directly identifiable genetic link; that makes it no less valid though.
This article is highly subjective and makes false presumptions. For example, it correctly points out the scarcity and questionable legitimacy of evidence surrounding transgender and its causes, then says “Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary”. In fact, there is no scientific consensus that gender isn’t binary. What we do know is that biological gender is indeed binary (as the article correctly states), and as far as we know, biology describes the totality of our gender experience. The rest is entirely speculation, most of it politicized, based on scant, often dated or discredited studies with hypothetical conclusions that establish nothing close to a consensus.
The article makes no mention of the numerous similarities between Gender Dysphoria and other cognitive illnesses like BDD, Anorexia, BIID, and Schizophrenia; all of which are disorders of body image or delusional perceptions and which come with the same level of “certainty” that transgender people experience. Rather than inventing a mythical “brain gender” unsupported by science, the far simpler explanation is that trans is a variant on other body image disorders that often (but not always) manifests as an identification with the opposite sex. It comes with many of the same co-morbidities of other cognitive illnesses, and it can respond to drug/therapy treatment in some people, also like other mental illnesses.
I could go on about the reasons transgender is much better explained as an illness of illusion, like anorexia, but I’ll end here. Just don’t look to this article as an accurate representation of the science because it’s not.
This article is written based on scientific studies. If you would like to claim that it’s an inaccurate representation of the science, please provide a set of scientific studies to back yourself up. We seek to always represent the science fairly.
As the author, it is YOUR responsibility to provide cites and resources to justify the position that you hold or the findings your deduce from the research. You provide none. So you’re asking someone else to provide evidence to disprove what you wrote. You have that backwards.
All citations are linked throughout the text! Many from peer-reviewed literature.
obviously these technical geniuses don’t understand how to work the Internetz lol
In the article it pointed out that other scientific studies were debunked and discredited, but why? What makes the study of transgenderism and how “Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary” so credited? You cannot prove your point without backing it up with a source, that source being one you used to disprove and prove your point.
We agree that sources are important! Please check out the linked words for the citations to the sources used to write this article (you can just click on the words in red in the sentences you’re interested in). One particular source for what you’re asking about, explaining why previous studies have been discredited, is here: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2010.550766
Curious to know how the World Professional Association for Transgender Health has so much influence on APA deliberations and if dissenting orgs had equal assess to APA deliberations.
While gender dysphoria used to be classified as a mental illness, it is now widely accepted that this is not the case. It is also widely accepted among both doctors and scientists that neither biological sex (i.e. XX, XY, XO, XXY, etc.) nor biological gender (whether it is identity as addressed in this article or otherwise) is binary.
I have to agree with Marshall. The Scientific Method is the process of eliminating possibilities through experiments, not designing experiments to support their hypothesis. This article has not considered many other hypothesis but cherry picked evidence to support the desired conclusion. In Neurobiology you can take any group of individuals and discover similarities in their brain composition. They’ve done this with Republicans and Democrats in the USA and many other control groups.
While the science may be sound in this article the conclusions can be misleading. It doesn’t answer what happens if an individual shows the same neurobiological signs of a transgender individual but does not identify as such? It does not compare these neurobiological findings to those with mental illnesses mentioned above ^^ (ie schizophrenia, BDD, anorexia etc)
Also, science has never been about consensus. The strength of a scientific claim comes from it’s infallibility and evidence supporting it and not the fact that the idea is becoming widely accepted. It’s one of the signs of someone who is trying to use science with an agenda instead of discovering truth.
There are some studies (almost all human studies) for which it is not possible to design the types of empirical experiments one can do with animals. The studies presented in this article are very standard scientific studies, designed using the scientific method within ethical confines.
Twin studies are the gold standard in determining genetic contribution in human studies. If more identical twins (who have identical genomes) than fraternal twins have something in common, then it is very likely that there is a genetic contribution. This is because it is unlikely that two identical twins are raised in more similar environments than fraternal twins. And this is exactly what was seen with the trait of being transgender!
And science is definitively about consensus! Not consensus in the “people’s court” but consensus between scientific studies–both those that directly replicate previous studies (important to rule out researcher bias) and studies that ask similar questions from the same angle. With the genetic and brain structure evidence we have now (and is explained in this article), there is scientific consensus that gender identity has biological underpinnings.
Since I haven’t seen any evidence from you or Marshall countering any of the claims in this article, it’s difficult to judge the scientific support of your arguments. If we are biased in our reporting, that suggests there must be a wealth of scientific literature against what we’re saying. Where is that?
Yes but that consensus needs to be 100% our close to in order to hold any weight. However even with consensus, evidence behind that consensus still is the strength behind the scientific claim. It was scientists like Galileo, and Newton who did not accept general consensus of their time and decided to not accept anything they couldn’t replicate and they argued that any claim can and must be challenged, even if the claim was held to be true by general consensus.
On the note of my own personal evidence, I am not the one making a scientific claim. This paper is the one that makes a scientific claim and attempting to use evidence to support the claim. My claim is that the evidence isn’t complete. Incomplete evidence provides incomplete conclusions.
Maybe you don’t understand the scientific method but the scientific method is making a hypothesis, and then designing multiple experiments that would disapprove that hypothesis. If all of those experiments fail to disprove the hypothesis, then logically it can be concluded that the hypothesis is correct. If you fail to perform and/or demonstrate all experiments that might disprove your hypothesis then the scientific process was incomplete.
All that this article does is show ONE experiment that supports the hypothesis and then published the conclusions. It’s a step in the right direction, however if you want to have a solid conclusion, they’re are still some holes that need to be filled. Isn’t that the whole point of peer review? To try and catch those holes before publishing?
Again great, insightful article but it is incomplete and does not answer all questions related to transgenderism. In fact it raises more questions than it answers and that in it of itself tells me it is an incomplete study with an incomplete conclusion.
This article is not a study. It is a summary of peer-reviewed, scientific-method-using literature on this topic. The author is not trying to make or test a hypothesis. She is just summarizing available studies. It’s actually very difficult to be comprehensive in this kind of article, but we do strive to represent the field accurately. And in fact, she also comes to the conclusion you did that we do not understand this topic 100% : “At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological.”
When I asked you for evidence, I was responding to the part of your comment that said you agreed with Marshall. Marshall said claimed that there was evidence that explained transgenderism as a mental illness. That’s a hypothesis, right? Doesn’t someone who makes that claim have the same responsibility to present evidence for or against it? But perhaps that’s not the part of Marshall’s comment you agreed with–sorry for making assumptions.
This article talks about multiple experiments (she cites at least 8 studies), btw. The point of peer review is to catch holes in a single study, not holes in an entire field of research. Gender is much too complicated to be understood in a single study. The studies here asked and answered specific questions (e.g. does transgenderism happen in two identical twins more than it happens in two fraternal twins? is a specific brain region of transgender men more similar to cisgender men or cisgender women?). And these studies, according to their peer-reviewers, were able to reliably answer these questions. No one is trying to explain all of the reasons contributing to gender identity in a single study. Every field has more work to do to understand ourselves and our world more completely. As scientists, we are glad that there are always more questions to answer, for this is what keeps us employed!
I understand. I believe the claim he was making referred to the high suicide rates that are comparable to those with Gender-dysphoria. In fact, the suicide rates for transgender individuals are higher than veterans (PTSD) (22%), depression (2-15%), bi-polar disorder (3-20%), and schizophrenia (6-15%). The 41% figure of transgender suicides is higher than all of those and suggests that this remains a mental condition. Studies have even determined that gender re-assignment surgery does not help with the suicide rates. The easy answer is to explain this away by saying the high suicide rate is due to high exposure to bullying. Yet even among other groups that experience intense bullying still come no where close to the same amount of suicide rates. I myself have spent two years in a situation where I was constantly rejected, spit on, robbed and even threatened at gun point. Not that I’m comparing what I went through to what a transgender individual goes through, but the stats seem to show there’s something more than bullying and social nonacceptance that accounts for such a high suicide rate. I believe that is what Marshall is referring to in the above comment and is a major flaw in the above article. If you want to prove that gender-dysphoria is not a mental condition then you have to explain why there’s so much more likelihood of suicide than virtually every other “bullied” group yet is comparable to the suicide rates with those of mental conditions.
Also it would be important to take into account individuals who have gone through what some would call a transgender lifestyle and lived to regret it. Understanding what helped them to not commit suicide and to come at peace with themselves. Many children who believe they are a different sex tend to grow out of it as their brain and body develops. So why should we encourage a behavior that is potentially self destructive? You would encourage a bulimic individual to continue throwing up would you? Also you wouldn’t try and convince them that their condition is natural and since they were born this way there’s nothing wrong with them. I would hope you would try and get them the best help possible. In fact similar neuroscience studies have found brain developmental causes for depression. Does that mean we encourage individuals with depression because it is natural? No we help them cope with it in spite of how their body naturally developed. I see no difference in with transgenderism especially because there is no indication in studies that transgender individuals would stop killing themselves if the world just stopped bullying them.
http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_suicide.php
https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/Suicide_Prevention_FactSheet_New_VA_Stats_070616_1400.pdf
First, high suicide rates in a group =/= that group has a mental illness. White men, as a group, also have higher suicide rates than the general population. Does that mean that identifying as a white man is a sign of mental illness? (of course not) https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
Second, the 41% number you cite is the suicide attempt rate from a survey people who are transgender (and thus did not die by suicide), whereas the other numbers you cite are suicide rates (of people who died by suicide), so it’s not really a fair comparison.
Third, can you cite the studies that show transgender people have higher suicide rates that is not due to bullying?
And fourth, from the APA: “having any gender identity, including a transgender identity, is not a disorder.” http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/11/psychology-transgender.aspx
Also I would look at:
http://www.sexchangeregret.com/research
Has there been a consensus of studies showing that as far as scientifically testing for sex via genes/chromosomes that there is a “transgender gene”?
Yes or no?
The answer to that question shows how you are using some studies to make your personal points and ignoring numerous others that prove you wrong and by doing so are doing just what you complain about in regards to the “people’s court”.
Figures lie and liars figure. Hiding behind the studies you choose to cherry pick while ignoring many others that YOU KNOW exist and that say something completely different with real consensus than your make believe consensus presented in this hack job article is no better than propaganda. There are many elements of truth presented, but when you can not even address a simple question on a transgender gene without mocking people and talking in circles when the answer is nothing but CONSENSUS? Please, save us your self serving condescension. You lose all credibility at that point.
From the article: “At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological.”
If you have studies to disprove this (i.e. show that transgenderism is not at all biological or genetic), please share, as I am not aware of them.
Here’s as simple as an answer to your question as I can give: There’s not a single transgender gene, but transgenderism has been shown by a consensus of twin studies to have genetic influence. Similarly, there’s not a single gene for heart disease or height, but we know these things are influenced by genetics.
I’m not trying to mock anyone, and I’m sorry to Clyde if he took it that way.
You cherry picked your truth
We have no intention of cherry-picking. Please let us know what other information you think should be included here so as not to give that impression.
Glancing over the “sex change regret” page, it’s worth noting a few things.
– In the cited Guardian article, there isn’t actually as strong a stance as the author of the sex change regret website would like us to believe. The Guardian article mentions that many therapists interviewed believe that the vast majority of their clients who have undergone sexual reassignment surgery are happy with the change. The consensus from the article (from both sides of the argument) is actually that more research needs to be done, because so many follow-up studies have sampled the population poorly. Furthermore, even if we take the statistics at face value (suicide rates of 3-18%, 1/5 of patients regretting sex changes), these statistics are remarkably lower than the one you quoted before – a 41% attempted suicide rate.
– The Swedish cohort study cited is written by authors who believe that their results “inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.” An immense flaw of the sexual reassignment process is poor patient care. Such a dramatic change inevitably produces psychological trauma. If you have a good health care provider, they will likely offer counseling after a skin transplant following severe burns that might alter your physical appearance (for instance). Furthermore, this cohort study was comparing individuals who had undergone sexual reassignment to the general population. Perhaps a better comparison would be to transgender individuals who had not undergone reassingnment to see if suicide rates had gone down – which would ACTUALLY comment on the effectiveness of sex reassignment. Finally, the difference in mortality rate was only statistically significant for people who had surgery before 1989; for those who had their surgery between 1989 and 2003, the increased mortality for transgender individuals wasn’t statistically significant.
Finally, a much more recent study has actually addressed some of your concerns. It shows that while suicide attempt rates are indeed higher among transgender individuals, these rates drop dramatically if psychological and social factors (bullying, marginalization, etc.) aren’t as big an issue – http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2
If their parents supported them, rates dropped. If the individuals themselves did not have negative views surrounding transgenderism, rates dropped.
The 40% suicide rate is from a poorly controlled internet study where the researchers admit 20% is a far more likely figure. This was for attempted suicide not actual.
You rightly point out there is no measure of comparison between trans people who do and don’t transition which would be necessary to determine the success of the treatment.
I am generally suspicious of the regret rate as so many are lost to follow up. Having had two friends transition fully and partially and regret it i am aware neither cases were captured as regret. In the full case the mtf continued to live as a woman as having divested herself of her genitalia she thought this the better option along with the ability to use the protected trans characteristic in law to her advantage in applying for jobs and housing etc. However she was fully aware that the procedure was a mistake and she realised she was a cross dresser who had a mental breakdown and became convinced that she was trans and transition the answer to her problems.
The case of my friend who partially transitioned was similar. He came to realise he was a cross dresser whose therapist had persuaded him was a sign he was actually trans gender. He know considers that this was delusional thinking encouraged by a mental health professional when he was suffering depression.
As the other two trans people i know who are happy with their transitional so have serious mental health issues i am inclined to think from this case study of 4 that whilst for some genetics may be at play that there is a large scope for other aetiologies. In fact it seems negligent to ignore this as allowing vulnerable people to modify their bodies so drastically in ways they may later regret even if not officially is unethical.
The biological basis this article promotes acts to encourage a lack of gatekeeping for treatment which i see as very important to ensure only those who would really benefit are permitted to be treated.
Gender is not binary.
Sex is binary — on a genetic/biological level. That said, you really should read up on intersex and how that works — on a genetic level. Gender, on the other hand, is socio-cultural. Your reading in this field might start with Anne Fausto-Sterling “Sexing the Body” and then move into Judith Butler “Gender Trouble” etc. etc. Bibliographies on both these works are a good resource for bringing yourself up to speed in the gender studies field.
Let me further note here that homosexuality used to be viewed by the APA and the DSM as pathological. DSM5, just recently revised, changes the terminology in gender ID from “disorder” to “dysphoria” . . . Transgender is not viewed as a pathology. It’s classed as a mood disorder in the anxiety/depression realm.
Dysphoria — sharing the Latin root w/ “eu-phoria” is fundamentally a mood. Moods do not necessarily correlate to some sort of neuro-pathological state (e.g. like schizophrenia, psychosis).
Gender presentation by and large is a socio-cultural function. Essentially presentation is a sort of linguistic process whereby we communicate gender through cultural “semes” — signifying cues that mark gender (e.g. skirts, beards).
Gender-mapping, that process that goes on in our heads and tells us ontologically and existentially who we are, that process as this article explains is determined by “nurture” in the womb. There are two windows in natal development for sex differentiation: First exposure to testosterone in the womb determines physiological development, penis/testes. Second window of natal exposure determines the epistemological “gender mapping” in the natal brain which codes sexual identity. Lacunae of sufficient testosterone, or inhibition to the effects of testosterone may result in a human who is physiologically “male” but nonetheless epistemologically “female” or some other variation along the infinite continuum of the sex dyad.
Anecdotally — I’ve been “trans whatever” since I was about four years old and able to distinguish that there are gender distinctions. It’s taken me nearly 70 yrs to come to terms with who I am and what I feel. As an academic in gender theory, I’ve been inclined to attribute “gender” to a socio-cultural, male hegemonic, hetero-normative dyadic oppression. It’s altogether existentially affirming to know that how I feel and who I am has fundamental biological underpinnings.
It’s not just all in my head.
No there are 2 sexes grow up.
lol, did you hurt yourself coming up with that witty comeback
The DSM was changed not by scientific pressure but by political pressure. This is no different than the EPA changing its criteria based on Exxon lobbying.
I would dearly love you to cite the evidence that gender dysphoria responds to psychopharmacological treatment or talking therapies (as the disorders you mentioned do). There’s a reason that transition is stated as the treatment for gender dysphoria by medical authorities, despite the fact that it’s a pretty extreme and expensive thing to do.
You’re conflating dysmorphobia with dysphoria. Trans people have a perfectly good idea as to what their bodies look like. There is no fussing over any minor or imagined defect. Trans people don’t feel that they have a defective body, they feel that their body sex is misaligned with their felt gender. Treatment (i.e. transition) in the vast majority of cases makes them feel better, is associated with staggeringly low long term regret rates (1-2% post op, 5% long term hormone therapy) and reduces suicide rates to closer to that of the gen pop.
Conversely, psychotherapeutic interventions for anorexia *are* helpful whilst helping someone with anorexia to achieve their body image goals would be assisted suicide.
Please reply with citations and not “sounds a bit like..” arguments.
Not to mention, I recall a study (unfortunately can’t find the link right now) where transgender individuals who attempted psychotherapeutic interventions reported the same (and sometimes worse) dysphoria, as well as often increases in concomitant depression and anxiety. Just one more bit of data suggesting that gender dysphoria is not in the same realm as BDD and other disorders (if they were, it would stand to reason that the same type of treatment would effect similar results).
Transgenderism is not at all like anorexia or other body dysmorphic illnesses because transgender patients were treated in the same exact way medically and psychologically as people with BIID, anorexia, etc and did not respond to the therapies or medication in anyway. However, people with anorexia, BIID, etc did and do respond to those therapies and medications. You should look into the history of how transgender people were treated by the medical community because they treated exactly like people suffering from body dysmorphic illnesses. If
transgenderism were a body dysmorphic illness like anorexia or BIID, etc, then we should have seen it respond to the treatments for it in some way, and transgenderism did not. However, transgenderism did and does respond very well to the way that it is treated today, which is first to help the person come to terms with their transgender status, and then from there to help the person decide what the next course of action should be from transitioning socially, medically, or do nothing. As for the comorbidity rate much of that is due to the very negative way in which transgender people are treated, and perceived by society. As the current treatment and standards of care for
transgender people today are very effective at managing gender dysphoria if the transgender patient is experiencing any to alleviating it completely. As a trans person myself I grew up suffering with gender dysphoria starting around the age of 6 when I realized that I couldn’t live and be perceived as the gender and sex that I had always known myself to be from my earliest memories. However, after talking with a gender therapist, socially transitioning, and especially after being on cross sex hormone replacement therapy for a few months my gender dysphoria completely went away. The only time I feel gender dysphoric now is when I want to be intimate with my partner because I have not been able to have gender confirmation surgery yet, and so I still do experience gender dysphoria, but it’s only related to my genitals and only during certain situations. Again if transgenderism were cognitive disorder like BDD, anorexia, BIID, etc then is should have responded to the treatments used to help people with those disorders, and they had no effect at all. And certain not for lack of
trying. The reason I believe for this is simple and that is that transgenderism in and of itself is not a mental disorder or illness. It’s another form of intersexuality that only affects the brain unlike other forms of intersexuality that affect the brain, reproductive organs, and or sex chromosomes. Down below is an excerpt from a paper that Dr.Milton Diamond wrote in 2011 as well as a link to the entire paper. If you don’t know who Dr.Milton Diamond is please google him as he has contributed probably more than anyone else to our understanding of gender, transgenderism, and interseuxality. He has been studying and publishing papers on every gender related since 1950, and is also one of the people who did a study with fraternal and identical twins looking to see if there is a genetic component to transgenderism. He located a set of identical twins who were adopted away at birth, and who were raised in different countries, spoke different languages, and both transitioned at around the same time, and both talked about experiencing their transgenderism similarly. In fact, down below is a link to a youtube video with him discussing the results. He’s also the person who brought to light the truth about the John\Joan experiment aka David Reimer story in 1997 as well.
“Actually from my own clinical experiences, my own experimental research, and from the findings of others I conclude that transsexuality is a form of intersexuality…. I believe that transsexuals are intersexed in their brains as others are or might be more obviously so in their gonads, genitals, hormonal character, receptors, enzymatic or chromosomal constitution. And it is this brain intersexuality that biases the person to assert his or her gender identity.”
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2011-ethical-considerations.html
As a retired RN, having researched this thoroughly, I stand with you Kristin. The AMA has confirmed this is biologic condition – with time, medical dr’s are slow – it will become biologic normal condition. They do basically consider it normal to have gender fluidity. As mentioned, at least 6 genes have been identified for gender ID. As mentioned, indigenous peoples identified and were comfortable with this, until the arrival of missionaries, who punished if not complied with male or female period. Due to their choice of beliefs.
Society is changing thank goodness, one is either for humane treatment of humans, or not. BTW I consider “liberal” irrelevant, as I believe the above sentence. Stay strong!
I believe that babies are born male or female unless of course if they are born with both sexual organs or partial of one or the other. Babies born with male organs or female organs become transgender through after birth experiences. Maybe I could be wrong but I could be called transgender since I have male feelings and female feelings and could make it sexually with either gender. I choose to be heterosexual.
Agreed. It’s a little weird how suddenly there’s all these young people searching for their gender and looking for microaggressions at every turn. I feel sorry for Transgendered men and women who aren’t trying to force their identities on the public through legislation. I’m especially concerned about CA Bill SB179, which will allow ONE parent to declare their child is a different gender from their biological sex on govt forms. I remember I went through a Tomboy stage for a while and wanted everyone to call me Bobby but I grew out of it. Legislating these fake ‘phobias’ sounds like a great excuse to enact hate speech laws, that if passed, will make it a crime to criticize articles like this. This is when Anti-bullying campaigns become another form of bullying people who don’t agree with you into ‘acceptance’. The fact that the governments in Europe, Canada, and California are trying to legislate these fake ‘phobias’ so they can give special privileges to members of these disenfranchised groups is frightening. Transphobia, Islamophobia, Shmobia!
lol, I don’t think you understand what most of those words mean
all these young people searching for their gender and looking for microaggressions at every turn are to tomorrow, what the bra-burners of the 70’s were to the female CEOs of today
you do not have a right to legislate control over what other people do with their bodies. period. there is FAR MORE in the way of ethical grounds for pro-life legislation than there is for anti-trans legislation, and I am not only pro-choice but PRO-ABORTION. we are not attempting to force our identities on the public through legislation. we are attempting to end violence against us through legislation. alternatively, we are being explicitly attacked and denied the right to exist in public space through legislation, which in turn ratifies violence against us. #Texas
are you aware that single parents exist? I’m confused
I know, it’s almost like if California makes it really easy to change one’s gender on government forms, people will be able to do it MORE than ONCE and maybe even get the idea that it’s OK to change one’s mind about things on the regular! the horror!
the only fake “phobias” being legislated are the ones wherein exposure to human bodies and sexuality will somehow psychologically scar Teh Children. HB2 in North Carolina was passed not long after I came out last year, and I was told by a man in a Facebook thread, as a broad, sweeping declaration, that he was coming for us all with a can of gasoline. Teh Children never seem to come under consideration when we are discussing the suicide rates of queer youth, or the fact that some queer people, such as myself, have actual real live children of our own. if you are really more concerned about being persecuted for “criticism” than you are about the daily, constant, unending harassment of a political minority, you might literally be a Nazi.
you sound like the sort of person who likes to quote exactly two statements ever made by the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, and ignore all the rest
the fact that the governments in Europe, Canada, and California… y’know, I can’t even. that is such a word salad.
ok. deep breath. I’m’a go with this. what, exactly, is the purpose of these campaigns? you seem to think there’s something else going on. what are the agendas in play? what is the endgame? enlighten me.
while you’re at it, I’d love to hear your definitions of “privilege” and “disenfranchised.” you do realize those concepts are like, exact polar opposites, right? they cancel each other out? no?
I agree, it’s frightening.
privilege (noun)
“if it doesn’t affect me then obviously it’s not a real problem”
I have no desire to engage with a bunch of people with armchair psych degrees all screaming about IT’S A MENTAL ILLNESS like climate-change deniers, but this free-speech concern trolling was too delicious to pass up
I must respectfully disagree with your words, which “seem” to state that children or young people are “searching” for their gender, & “finding micro aggressions”. It is so backward, I might laugh, but it is a serious matter when society thinks as you do. Here is a definition of “privilege” which white “straight” sometimes “religious” society enjoys currently: Some academics highlight a pattern where those who benefit from a type of privilege are unwilling to acknowledge it. American sociologist Michael S. Kimmel describes the state of having privilege as being “like running with the wind at your back”, unaware of invisible sustenance, support and propulsion.[2] The argument may follow that such a denial constitutes a further injustice against those who do not benefit from the same form of privilege. One writer has referred to such denial as a form of “microaggression” or microinvalidation that negates the experiences of people who don’t have privilege and minimizes the impediments they face. Those who need “special rights” only “need” them due to the ignorance or belief in opinion as fact, due to their un-self aware “privilege”. These special rights protect the marginalized from the many micro and macro aggressions taken on them, in daily life. People do not “search” for their gender identity. It is inherent in their brain gender ID structure, recently scientifically/medically discovered. The reproductive organs form during the first 5-12 weeks of pregnancy. As with any early pregnancy time, all organs are fragile to outside events, genetics triggered, receptors working or not, hormones. My mother was exposed to DDT, and it did cause a defect for me. So, am I “searching” for my gender ID? NO. In the last half of pregnancy, the brain forms the gender ID structure, larger in males/transmales and smaller in females/transfemales. Legislation is necessary for all marginalized, due to the current wave of outright acted upon hatred toward those not privileged to be born white. Or straight. It is BIOLOGICAL, not theological.
You are correct about “fake phobias”. These are actually “bigotry” and “hate”. About something that does not impact others lives with harm. The marginalized have fear every day. In the USA, our Constitution demands equality for all. Wonder why this is not true? (not really).
You are being dramatic about not being able to criticize an article. Free speech is in our Constitution also. One’s choice of religious lifestyle is not allowed to impact other’s lives in our Constitution either.
IF you are still reading, I would suggest using the Google to research privilege, the lives daily of marginalized persons (non-white, non-binary), medical research- use .edu, .org, not .com. I do wish you well on a journey of eye opening, and hopefully more empathy and compassion for all the humans who live on this earth.
BTW, “transgendered” is incorrect grammar. I am not “straighted” nor “gayed”.
Thanks, hope you can have success; usually humility is earned via suffering. I will pray you learn humility.
McIntosh wro
Yes. I am both male and female inside both wanting to be without the other. I choose to be heterosexual because I know I could not live with the stigma of being transgender and even if transgender is pronounced biological and totally acceptable, I choose to be what my body is and was when I was born.
It is proven science that the X and Y chromosomes are not the determinant of sex assignment. To believe they are is to make yourself into a relic of the past. Please find where your source of curiosity went as it’s loss has limited your thought process. Any time I’ve uncovered something that runs contrary to a long held belief, I investigate that opposing idea as I know that I’ve been subject to believing outdated facts, myths, false data and good old fashioned wives’ tales.
This is very interesting to read as a trans girl myself. out of curiousity it says twins environments affect them. iss this trying to say you are more likey to be trans based on where you live? im a identical twin me and my brother biologicaly male however ive never meet him until 4 months ago he lived with my dad and i lived with my mom. he is cisgender though.
Twin studies are a common way to determine how much a trait is caused by your genetics or the environment. Environmental causes can include many things–something you’re exposed to in the womb, how you’re treated by your parents, an injury you had in childhood. In the case of being transgender, you could imagine that this trait might be caused by something you’re exposed to in your life (e.g. higher levels of hormones in your water as a child) OR it could be caused by a gene you have that creates a divergence between your biological sex and your gender identity. Identical twins have the same genes, so if gender identity were entirely due to genetics, you would expect that two identical twins would always have the same gender identity. However, identical twins often (though perhaps less so in your case) have very similar environments, too (siblings are often exposed to the same water growing up), so these studies use fraternal twins (who have different genetics, but similar environments) as a control. If there are genetic causes, you’d expect more identical twins to share a gender identity than fraternal twins (since identical twins have more similar genetics). If the causes are entirely environmental, you’d expect that fraternal and identical twins would be similar in the proportion of twins who share a gender identity. In the case of gender identity, more identical twins share gender identity than fraternal twins, meaning that there are some genetic causes. However, 100% of identical twins don’t share gender identity, meaning that there are also environmental factors at play. So since you and your brother are identical twins, it suggests that differences in your environments played a role in the differences in your gender identity. I hope that answers your question!
Marshall, you represent the multitude of ignorant people that harbor anger toward anyone that is different from them. You discount science because you are threatened by a group of persons that are not doing anything personally to you. Why don’t you figure out what thoughts and desires you are repressing that cause you to be so angry?
“Marshall, you represent the multitude of ignorant people that harbor anger toward anyone that is different from them. ”
In reality, what’s going on is that trans people are claiming they are not different yet the biological facts say yes they are very different than the biological sex that matches their gender identity.
This article is filled with pro-trans propaganda and I’ll be sure to come back very soon to explain this in great detail, using credible, unbiased links as well as peer-reviewed citations.
Well said!
Human beings are sexually dimorphic, end of discussion. The author fails epicly to disprove this, instead touts out the vague assertion that science tells us that gender, mind you gender is a social not biological construct, is not binary.
This assertion takes the discussion from a hard science such as biology or chemistry to the soft science of sociology, in other words an educated guess. So effectively the author is arguing, poorly, that there might be some some scientific evidence to support a basis for this deviant behavior. Keep in mind I am using the sociological definintion of deviant, which is defined and any behavior that is contrary to the dominant norms of a society.
That pretty much ends the discussion right there. The bill was written to address sex, not gender, doesn’t matter how you feel about it, there are only two sexes. Saying something has strong support in the social sciences is like finding someone in a mental institution that claims God told me to do it. Saying something is peer reviewed in a hard science carries far more weight than one from a soft science. I do not see an overwhelming amount of evidence here to support most of the assertions made in this paper, plain and simple. Whining about the limited amount of funding available for research puts the final two nails in the coffin, first it is not an accepted cultural norm worthy of further study, second as noted perhaps spend less time on pseudo science and more effort to design and test a valid hypothesis as it might yeild more funding.
first off 1 can argue bilogicly that there are 4 hermaphrodite and its opposite counter part idk the name of
but gender identity is always and will always be way more importaint and meaningful then your sex
but i cant help to ask wtf bill are you talking about this was a scientific thing on gender identity not about any bill
reguardless its importaint that gender identity is respective above biology cause that represents your true self
if your talking about those bathroom bills in texas and north carolina all those do are hurt ppl they help noone
“but gender identity is always and will always be way more importaint and meaningful then your sex”
Please come on back to earth. Most people still do not understand that gender and biological sex, are not the same things. Most people speak of gender when what they technically mean is biological sex. Even when a doctor states that a newborn’s gender is male or female, technically what he is referring to is biological sex.
I understand exactly why trans people such as yourself would like for the world to focus on gender rather than biological sex. The reality is that we don’t and we never will when it comes to dating/sex/relationships/sexual attraction and desires.
Many trans women are beaten and or killed each year because they made the foolish assumption that the straight guy they were out on a date with, cared more about gender than biological sex. Gender is of the mind. A sense of self. It is who you are. Biological sex is what you are (male or female). No matter how the LGBTQ community tries to spin, lie and blast the web with BS; biological sex is what it is. Human beings have sexual attraction/sexuality. Sex. Not gender!
just cause ppl dont yet know the dif and such does not make it any less importaint
gender identity is more importaint then biology and we fight every day to stop this nonsence that biology has anything to do with who you are
and we have came a long way and we will keep fighting for civil rights
and were winning this fight even if in areas it doesnt look like it but this is exactly how any other civil rights movements went
theres no place in this world to treat a transgirl any different then any other girl
Kirstin, you’re replying to my comment yet you speak as if you didn’t comprehend my points.
Again, the thing that matters the most, IS biological sex. Gender does not determine who can and can not give birth. Gender is not what we as human beings are sexually attracted to. You want the world to care more about gender because your biological sex is not what you want it to be.
Sorry but a trans woman is not the same as a biological woman. That is why one is called trans and the other is not. That may be a very hurtful fact within your mind and heart but is the truth. I’m not willing to live within dishonesty in order to make you feel better about yourself.
you are incorrect in your asumptions on attraction attraction is a personal thing and there are alot of ppl who are not attracted to ppl based on genitalia
your statement is false in many ways genitalia does not define you gender identity is who you are biology is nothing more then apearence there are trans girls youd never know are trans so yes a transgirl can be just as much a girl as any cis girl
and fyi translesbians mostly only date other lesbians or bisexuals straight girls dont date trans lesbians because there not interested in girls
so idk whos ass you pulled that out of but biology DOES NOT define you and it never will
You’re more than welcome to your opinion no matter how much they do NOT represent reality for the majority of humanity. Again, just because you claim something, does not make it factual. Reality does not exist according to your desires. If it did, then you would not be trans, you would be a biological woman.
Tell me, what is is exactly, that makes a person gay? What is the definition of being homoSEXUAL? Notice the word sexual, not gender?!
Most people are attracted to people of the opposite biological sex as them. That is how nature designed us for the very specific purpose of reproduction in order to keep the human race thriving.
Tinder is a very popular dating app. They had to add a transgender option because users kept getting angry that they were not informed that some of their matches were trans. After finding out, users would flag the trans users:
http://www.businessinsider.com/transgender-tinder-users-reported-and-banned-2015-6
https://mic.com/articles/120123/transgender-tinder-users-are-getting-banned-allegedly-because-of-their-gender-identities#.diXIh6ri9
Many trans women are attacked and or killed each year, after a straight male they date, finds out that they are trans. Harming a trans person or any person is always wrong but the reason that leads them to such anger is yet another indication as to how strongly many people feel about gender vs biological sex.
“there are trans girls youd never know are trans so yes a transgirl can be just as much a girl as any cis girl”
Being a biological woman is about far more than what they look like. Trans people are so focused on “passing” as much as they can, that you actually think that is all it takes to be a woman. Less than 1/3 of trans people undergo SRS. That means that MOST trans women have a penis. You may try to minimize that reality in your mind but the fact remains that MOST straight guys have NO interest in dating/having sex with another penis. The fact that you can’t seem to understand that, says a whole lot in a very bad way.
Most trans women do not pass very well. A fact that I’m sure you’ll deny. Most trans people do not begin HRT before puberty though HRT would be most effective if it began before puberty begins its natural course on the body.
As a trans woman, you can not give birth. That is yet another important factor to not all but most men. Again, having a penis is a deal breaker to most straight men. You can deny it all you want but you can’t prove that it’s incorrect. I’m a male. I know many males, all of whom feel the same as I do.
I live in Malibu CA (Los Angeles County). We have a large LGBTQ population here. I’ve even been hit on by 2 trans women in the past. One of them “passed” well but the voice was def trans. The other one looked trans, a mile away. Regardless, I had zero interest in either one of them because I’m only interested in biological women. When the time is right, I will get married and have children with a biological woman.
“so idk whos ass you pulled that out of but biology DOES NOT define you and it never will”
You’re really not paying attention, are you?! Again, biological sex is what you are as in your physical body. Gender is who you are as in your sense of self within your mind. Do you really not understand the difference?
A biological male can have a great personality. He can be within his mind, everything that I like. But I would never even consider wanting to date him. Why? Because I’m not gay. I’m not attracted to people who are the same biological sex as me. You can focus on gender all you want, but you can NOT force anyone else to do the same. That will never happen.
See yourself as whatever you want. That is your business and your right. What is not your right is to try and tell other people what should be most important to them and how they should feel about you and your transgender reality.
Then if the guy wasn’t attracted to her, why were they on a date? Why are there dating sites where men seek out trans women to date? The visual representation of gender is what the man (cis) wants. If she has fully transitioned, he may never know the difference. That’s why trans people go stealth after surgery, to avoid bigots.
Consider this: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf
That report is very controversial and not peer reviewed: see https://thinkprogress.org/about-that-not-born-this-way-study-b3e07d0354f5#.6a6hxog0e
You say “Several studies have shown that identical twins are more often both transgender than fraternal twins, indicating that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity.” A statement like that demonstrates just how little you understand about science and scientific studies, truth and lies and is why any reader should question everything you write.
Anyone who exercises reason can discern that just because “several studies” (with no further qualification than the word study) have shown that it does in no way “INDICATE that there is indeed a genetic influence for this identity.” This is frankly a lie, not a reasoned conclusion. To make such a conclusion from the few words you have offered is an intended deception which cast a doubt on the veracity of everything you say.
The sentence you quote links to one of the studies (which is actually a meta-study that contains a nice list of all the studies it examined). We could probably write a whole article just about twin studies, but here we were trying to cover more ground. I’m sorry that you found it confusing, but the author was making a conclusion from the cited study (not just a “few words”).
Twin studies are actually an extremely common way to determine the relative contribution of genetic and environmental factors. If you’re interested, you can read more about it here: http://msutwinstudies.com/why-twin-studies/
Great. Harvard has jumped on the lunacy bandwagon now? This is just fake science and biased garbage. Enough people. What happened to reason?? Everyone rejects facts now. You have all lost your minds. It is a mental disorder, end of.
Great. Harvard has jumped on its usual scientific facts now. This is just well researched science and blessed (oops misread lol) truth. Good to know 10 yrs and more of scientific research has happened, and this is accepted by reason of medical/scientific researchers/physicians instead of churches. Only fundamentalists reject facts now. I am glad majority of all humans do not reject hard scientific work now. It is biological and genetic, end of.
I happen to believe there’s some physical evidence for Transexuality but it’s certainly not cast in stone. The idea that gender is fluid because Judith Butler and articles like this say so, is ridiculous.
That’s funny, I find the idea of “adding” dinosaurs to the biblical story ridiculous!
Humans are all so different, aren’t they? I read lots of different articles. Isn’t that silly? lololol
A most informative piece. I found it very helpful. I found my dysphoria completely vanished once my body matched that of my mind. My. My arms, my legs, my body, my mind… I have become My self. Science – this science has helped me to make sense of why I am . Thanks.
I liked the article, and chased up a couple of references, but was disappointed by what I found. In the paragraph on estrogen receptor sensitivity, you cite two articles. The first links to an an article which discusses genetic polymorphism in ERb, not direct measurement of sensitivity (I can’t read the full paper, because it is not Open Access and we don’t have a subscription to that journal, but there is nothing in the abstract about receptor study per se, just genetic linkages) while the second links to an article that states explicitly “molecular findings presented no evidence of an association between the sex hormone-related genes (ERβ, AR, and CYP19A1) and MtF transsexualism.”, which seem to me to contradict your assertion that there is evidence to support the hypothesis. Do you have any more solid data on this?
Hi! Thanks so much – you actually caught a mistake! We meant to cite another article by Fernandez et al., also published in 2014, looking at transsexuals. These two papers actually came out the same year and covered a similar topic, hence the error, which has now been corrected.
However, I don’t want to obfuscate or hide the data that’s out there! So, I want to make sure I address your comments.
For MtF…
– In MtF, androgen receptors appear to be longer (and thus less sensitive). See http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp-prod1.hul.harvard.edu/science/article/pii/S0006322308010871#bib19 and https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article-abstract/4/4/523/560387/Evidence-for-a-repressive-function-of-the-long?redirectedFrom=PDF
– http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp-prod1.hul.harvard.edu/science/article/pii/S0306453005000454 – this article, as you state, discusses genetic associations. However, that’s pretty much the extent of what we can do in humans. We can’t do a lot to manipulate estrogen levels in vitro. Still, studying ERbeta in mice, we do know that polymorphisms can have drastic effects on nervous system develop. As you can see, this can go both ways – having a poor estrogen receptor or one that’s too long can result in poor feminization in FtMs (Fernandez et al in the corrected text). With MtF, the polymorphism is different, and thus has different repercussions.
Another interesting piece of evidence with FtM – http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(07)01228-9/fulltext – this study looks at a CYP17 variant. CYP17 is involved in hormone metabolism, and thus may be affecting estrogen production. This study supports the idea that FtM may not have sufficient estrogen production (and thus are not sufficiently feminized).
I also want to address the other Fernandez et al. 2014 paper that was incorrectly cited. This paper wasn’t fully investigated because it isn’t in a journal available to Harvard students, and thus it wasn’t (intended to be) included in this article, and thus I can’t fully evaluate its methods. However, the androgen receptor paper cited above was fully vetted by us and met our standards. Briefly comparing what is available between the papers, the Hare et al. paper drew from a more ethnically diverse population and had strong statistics backing it up. Still, it is absolutely worth acknowledging that we don’t have a strong consensus on mechanism yet, and we will hopefully cover more of the science behind it in the future. There is, however, medical and scientific consensus that transgender identity is NOT a mental illness: the DSM-V does not list it as a mental illness, and the vast majority of certified health professionals agree that is not a type of dysphoria.
Part of my difficulty with this field is understanding what is meant by having a sense of gender.
What does it feel like to be male / female? I have emotions, feelings, & preferences etc, but I’m not aware of those being indicative of masculinity or femininity.
I could compare them to stereotypes, but perhaps people are talking of a different, extra thing: genderception. Is that a thing?
I’d be very grateful for insights.
Damian, I’m of the same mind. I want to know–what does it feel like to be male or female? While transgender people seem very sure of being of a gender other than their biological sex, I, as someone who does not identify as transgender, would not know what makes me a woman other than my body, the only body I have ever had (form follows function?). Growing up I didn’t identify with any stereotypical groups. I didn’t feel like I was “one of them.” But that doesn’t mean I thought I was misgendered. It means that I didn’t buy the social construct that was presented to and apparently imposed on me. I was just me. Later on, of course, as an adult woman I felt the impact of that social construct on me, whether I liked it or not. Culturally, I am a woman because I am seen as a woman. That’s the way it works. But I always understood it as a construct, something given to me already made rather than a way of being. And I think that’s how most of us experience gender, if with different degrees of awareness. So when a transwoman says she’s a woman, she must be talking about something many of us don’t know, something fixed and identifiable many of us women with a lifelong experience of being categorized as women can’t quite claim as an identity. I am in no way questioning any trans person’s identity. What I am wondering is what is like to feel like a woman or a man when these are not fixed qualities anyone can refer to. As for all the gender variants that keep adding letters and more letters, I do believe it’s getting ridiculous. We are all different. I think that’s well understood. But do we need a name for everything? Even for things we cannot describe? Life is fluid. We are all fluid, one way or another. We should respect all human beings. That’s the bottom line.
“what does it feel like to be (cis) male or female?” – It feels correct. It feels like you fit your body. It feels like you know what bathroom to go into. It feels like you know what clothes look good on you. It feels like you BELONG IN YOUR SKIN. So much more than your body parts I’m sure.
“While transgender people seem very sure of being of a gender other than their biological sex, I, as someone who does not identify as transgender, would not know what makes me a woman other than my body, the only body I have ever had (form follows function?).” – Best way I can explain it is that you know that your body makes you a woman because it fits you. A trans person knows their body doesn’t fit. Your mind, psyche, body, all match. Theirs does not.
“Growing up I didn’t identify with any stereotypical groups. I didn’t feel like I was “one of them.” But that doesn’t mean I thought I was misgendered. It means that I didn’t buy the social construct that was presented to and apparently imposed on me. I was just me.” – I also could not fit into stereotypical groups (of women) and was frequently left out of the boy’s club. The only one that made sense to me. I was one of them (the boys), but looking from the outside. I never knew what misgendered was, I couldn’t buy the construct if I wanted because my inner masculinity did not fit the equipment I was born with. I was just me, wanting to feel complete and whole like a cisgendered person does.
“Later on, of course, as an adult woman I felt the impact of that social construct on me, whether I liked it or not.” – As an adult, I still felt like I didn’t fit my own body, and same as before, didn’t fit the gender norms like you, either.
“Culturally, I am a woman because I am seen as a woman. That’s the way it works.” – For someone who is cisgendered and matches their biological sex. You look in the mirror, you see a woman. Society sees a woman. You FEEL like a woman. Your body matches your soul/psyche.
“But I always understood it as a construct, something given to me already made rather than a way of being. And I think that’s how most of us experience gender, if with different degrees of awareness.” – I completely agree. Society gives people roadmaps or blueprints to follow if we fit the gender normative life. Those are the standard roles, and are constructed (All boys like blue, all girls like pink). We all see it in our specific society, and other countries have their own versions.
“So when a transwoman says she’s a woman, she must be talking about something many of us don’t know, something fixed and identifiable many of us women with a lifelong experience of being categorized as women can’t quite claim as an identity.” – Actually, she feels just like you do. She worries about gender norms, she hopes someone will love her and find her attractive, she wants to dance and cry and who gives a damn what colors she likes? Her body just didn’t quite match up, but it sounds like yours did.
“I am in no way questioning any trans person’s identity.” – But you are questioning how a person feels something, when you have admitted that you are not trans. All you can do is listen to what they tell you, now.
“What I am wondering is what is like to feel like a woman or a man when these are not fixed qualities anyone can refer to.” – Kind of like you should have been born with the right body.
“As for all the gender variants that keep adding letters and more letters, I do believe it’s getting ridiculous. We are all different. I think that’s well understood. But do we need a name for everything? Even for things we cannot describe?” – In language, labels are useful for ease-of-reference. The long abbreviations are very tongue-in-cheek at this point. No way that we can all have labels that box everyone up. But it does help for reference, and for recognizing diversity.
“Life is fluid. We are all fluid, one way or another. We should respect all human beings. That’s the bottom line.” – I completely agree.
Science is rapidly proving the biological nature of transgender, even fluid gender. Indigenous peoples often accepted a variety of perhaps 5-6 genders, until christian missionaries arrived insisting on M or F only, or punished. As an RN, I do know genitals are formed in the first 5-12weeks of pregnancy, when one is very susceptible to outside sources such as chemicals, also hormone levels and receptors being on or off properly, and viruses. Thus there are intersex persons, who know who they are in gender. Prior to repair, a surgeon now waits until age 3-5, when the child persistently, consistently, insistently states WHO they are. There is a book out, about repair done during infancy, female; the boy knew he was a boy, and had considerable distress. This gender dysphoria is caused by non-parental support (I know of families who chose their church & threw their child out of the house, young enough to become homeless, and prey to predators). It is caused by the constant draining requirement to be unable to be out, who they are, due to job, school, any discrimination. Who could be happy living undercover due to society’s mis-information, spread by SPLC designated “christian” anti-LGBTQ hate groups? ONE hate group was behind nation wide “bathroom bills” legislation, originating the line “Do you want a MAN in the bathroom w/your LITTLE GIRL?”, “they are confused, need help”, after slandering them viciously they chose this tactic. Liberty Councel, made up of attorneys.
Does anyone remember the gonadal changes occurring after exposure by pregnant mom to DDT? I can tell you it affected mine. The brain forms gender structure in last half of pregnancy, and is irreversible. Children do say who they are now, age 3-5, persistently, insistently, consistently. Their eyes show their change- going from sad, shaded to alive, sparkling once transition achieved. This is no choice. Why would one choose a life of taking hormone, having a surgery, having to HIDE, being discriminated in jobs, housing, bullied terribly, hated by the very religious.
I’ve read many scientific articles, not on .com, and have read reports more detailed even than this one. Some commenters appear a bit biased against any proof. To me? This is a huge scientific paradigm shift- one’s gender is determined by one’s BRAIN! Amazing! A discovery of this sort is usually given press, celebrated. Yet, there remains too much ignorance and hate.
You cannot imagine being in the wrong body? That is because you are in alignment with your brain. Try to write with the opposite hand if not able to write well with both. Try really hard to imagine seeing a female in place of one’s male body if identifying as male. It’s really not THAT hard. What if you woke up tomorrow with the opposite body? Would it be illusionary? Would you have dysphoria, depression, sadness?
In Salem, they used to burn epileptics at the stake. The disabled were kept in rooms in the attic. Or institutionalized, blaming the mother. Autistic children had “refrigerator moms”. Personally I do not understand why this is so difficult to comprehend.
Methylation is often mentioned in this anomaly. I wonder if studies have been done on parents with MTHFR? Their bodies have difficulty in methylizing and ability to make use of some vitamins, meds, etc. I would like to see that studied.
Thank you for this article, would like to read more on genetics, as I have prior. There is genetic component to autism also. There are higher numbers of autism kids in transgender population- genetics triggered in that first 5-12 weeks of pregnancy. I would like and be open to comments by the author. Thank you.
Thank you for replying. I’m not attacking the science, or individuals who suffer add a result of being transgender. My question was a genuine one.
I do appreciate that most societies have strong concepts of how males and females should behave, what their preferences should be, the feelings they’re allowed, and so forth. These rules have a detrimental effect on everyone, especially those who don’t fit the prescribed role.
You give a clear example of how I might understand better: you are right that I can imagine awaking to find my body is not my own. Whether it be a different race, sex, or species. That would be upsetting and confusing, at least in part due to me being used to, and having memory of, a particular physical nature. I believe I have heard some transgender people describe their condition in those terms: a mismatch between their perception and the physical reality. I think this would sometimes be a sort of body dysphoria. (Like thin anorexic people believing they are overweight).
More commonly, though, I’ve read people’s descriptions of how their gender does not match their sex. This seems to be a different thing.
I do have a knowledge that my body is male (i have a penis, I don’t have a vulva), I don’t have a sense that my mind is masculine, excepting that it matches more stereotypes my culture has for men than women.
So, the body perception thing is something I can grasp.
Societal punishment for not maintaining gender norms, I get, and do what I can to challenge such prejudices.
Feeling a gender, I still don’t understand. I’m not denying its existence, or criticising those who do feel it, though.
Perhaps it’s a bit like an asexual person trying to understand sexuality.
It IS hard to “feel” how another feels. I wouldn’t imagine being able to state how it feels to be in the gender fluid way in my brain, because MY brain is straight female. As I said, it has been proven there is a gender ID structure in the brain. It is like white striae. In males it is larger than in females. When compared, the transman was equal in size to a male, & had also some unique properties. Same with trans women. As there have been at least 6 genes discovered for gender ID (including agender), there is much to learn about the brain. About the brain for anything really!
Society norms make it uncomfortable to know one is male, and then have a female body. Children are now stating who they are at 3-5. Inter-sex infants used to have reparative surgery right then. Now surgeons (if knowledgeable) wait until that child insistently, persistently, consistently states their gender. Same holds true for children who state “I am a boy”- must be insistently, persistently, consistently. There are experts in this field. They are now teaching the biology of gender ID in colleges, and med schools. Society has a hard time with this. As they did back in the day with bullying ANYone with a birth difference. So I guess I’m thinking – two groups. Children get to receive care that stops puberty until proper hormones are given, and can “pass” quite easily as the gender they are. Those who are late to it, must transition, it takes generally a year. Due to society, they need to be and look as their brain dictates to be happy. I’ve seen many a picture of before/after; the eyes are so sad, dark prior, after they are alive, sparkly. So yes the gonads are separate than the brain structure informing that person “who” they are. I can’t imagine being a soldier with his/her bits blown off. (gonadal) They remain “who” they are due to the dictates of their gender ID brain structure. I would think they’d give anything to have everything look normal again. I myself have a disabled leg. I don’t expect anyone to understand how it feels to have it, to have the chronic pain, the frustration of pacing my day, having to elevate it, etc. We cannot “feel” what another is suffering. When I say what if you woke up in female body, and you are still you! Yikes!Would you accept seeing breasts? No penis? So I understand it is very hard to understand wholly, as with anything different in others. Unless one has the capability to walk in another’s shoes. And that is a whole other thing, isn’t it? Empathy maybe? No. I cannot imagine truly what it is to be W/C bound my whole life. Or being gay, I wonder how does that “feel”? Doesn’t make it untrue does it. I wish society would stop demonizing all who are not male or female straight. Their plight is tragic enough. All birth “defect” or “anomaly” are. But then to be persecuted, is unconsciounable.
Thank you for your response. They are human beings, just as all, trying to get through life, being persecuted due to fundamentalist religion & politicians pandering to them. It is a tragedy. Obviously I know many tho I am not.They are perfectly lovely, kind, integrity filled human beings. Perhaps from suffering. Sometimes I think society gets them mixed up with the old 70’s drag queens who entertained. Couldn’t be further from the truth. Thanks for your thoughts.
Damian, I appreciate your sincere question and will attempt to relay something useful from my perspective as a trans man and a feminist.
without a doubt we have all been socialized from birth to treat people we perceive as male and people we perceive as female in different ways, and to expect different behaviors depending on how we ourselves are perceived by others. the set of expectations which are built around conceptions of “male” and “female” vary from time to time and culture to culture, but can be universally addressed as “masculinity” and “femininity.” these sets of expectations, in all their variance of expression and severity, are obviously what people are referring to when we say that gender is a social construct.
I’m assuming it is less than controversial to assert that femininity has historically been at a disadvantage to masculinity throughout civilization in all but the most egalitarian societies — such as those of the First Nations, which we of course exhaustively cite when pushing back against eurocentric heteronormativity, with data on two-spirits. in societies with an open power disparity, gender expression is necessarily impacted by survival pressures. the contemporary mortality rate of trans women is a microcosm (we’re talking sociology now, so, y’know) of all the ways in which the modern Western world remains closer to the second scenario than the first.
but what are “male” and “female” upon which we are building these concepts of Masculine and Feminine? the obvious answer is the shape of one’s genitalia and reproductive organs, and of course there are secondary dimorphic characteristics which can be generalized but are themselves highly variant (height, bone structure, muscle mass, hair growth, etc) and that’s before we even get into the existence of intersex folk. I love how anti-trans rhetoric always dismisses an already underrepresented and marginalized population because the empirical presence of exceptions in no way proves anyone’s point about exceptions being a thing. /sarcasm. but I digress.
you say, I get all that, I get ideas about gender conformity, I grok that reproductive equipment isn’t as binary as people like to think, but what does it mean to “feel” male or female? and this is a fascinating question, with which I have been wrestling since I finally came out as a trans man a little over a year ago, after 37 years of trying to accept myself as Female. understand, I had a lot invested, politically and emotionally, in my identity as a woman, and I continue to struggle with the personal repercussions of systemic abuse of Women in our culture.
however, regardless of the biodevelopmental or psychosocial “reasons” for my gender identity, ignoring all the cultural and political implications of male privilege and overrepresentation, I can actually define how I know I am a man fairly easily. I belong with other men.
for all that everyone hates being labeled, everyone loves the freedom to label themselves, and that is exactly the point of self-identification, whether we are claiming status in a group defined by gender, ethnicity, or fealty to Star Trek over Star Wars. the fact of the matter is that we are primates, pure and simple, and only survive on both individual and species levels based on our ability to cohere within groups. we are social animals and very literally and demonstrably require the acceptance and attention of other humans in order to thrive, unless of course we have an antisocial personality disorder.
and by and large, trans people may be depressed and anxious af, but we are not generally antisocial. quite the contrary, we crave acceptance by our self-identified in-group. people who were able to identify their trans expression in childhood will often refer to “the other girls” and “the other boys” as being subject to experiences from which the speaker felt left out, whether social (wearing dresses) or physical (sprouting facial hair at puberty). trans adults, myself among them, often report powerful somatic cravings for physical sensations and experiences associated with a different body, such as the ability to menstruate or penetrate a sexual partner. but in the absence of social feedback and ingroups on which to map one’s inner reality, such feelings are excruciatingly difficult to identify and describe, let alone fulfill in any meaningful way.
I don’t stop existing when other people aren’t around (in fact I’m quite solitary) and I fought for a great deal of body acceptance as a woman and a feminist. I do not suffer from image issues, as others have noted, of believing that there is something “wrong” with my body, and in fact I find it quite strong and beautiful. but it is not mine, in a dissociative fashion I took decades to understand as, more or less, the “trapped” narrative of mainstream media. when my body causes me distress these days, it is because I do not look/smell/sound like the other members of my self-identified ingroup, and from a lizard-brain perspective this is deadly. period.
my distress used to be rooted in a vague but pervasive sense that I didn’t belong in my ingroup, for reasons I couldn’t identify. my relationships with women have improved dramatically since I distanced myself from them consciously, after a lifetime of never feeling fully accepted by women in the way I do by men. I submit that this is not the fault of anyone, on either a cultural or individual basis (I’ve been abused by both genders equally) but rather a naturally occurring glitch in my brain, since like, there’s data to support such a conclusion. I cannot feel accepted by women as one of their own. I’m literally incapable of it, because the sex-differentiation structures in my brain upon which primate heirarchies are built have determined, independent of the rest of me, that I don’t belong in that ingroup.
I lose patience with certain arguments over socialization, as though a bunch of ignant sheep herders got together several thousand years ago and invented all the conventions of gender out of whole cloth in some sort of organized effort. the fact of the matter is that certain patterns of biological typification are not difficult to identify, nor are they universal. men are more aggressive, in aggregate. women are more sensitive, in aggregate. these traits kept us alive for hundreds of thousands of years before the dawn of agriculture and its associated imposition of gender *conformity* designed to promote breeding. they are a self fulfilling prophecy in that the sensitive people consistently wind up at the mercy of the aggressive people. they are also far from deterministic and in fact I argue that medical transition for trans folk has proven conclusively that the only practical difference between the sexes is a matter of hormones.
my understanding is that when I begin T, I can expect my inner experience to reflect the relief inherent in a biological need being fulfilled. assuming that my brain has anomalous structures associated with being Male as described in these studies, my androgen receptors will respond to hormone therapy like a dopamine drip, and a great deal of anxiety will evaporate as my lizard brain stops screaming at me after a lifetime that I don’t properly belong and my group is gonna eat me. my presentation as Male will be more readily accepted by others cuz of pheromones, and this will fall into a nice little feedback loop of affirmation. I may very well also experience heightened dysmorphia wrt certain aspects of my body, as a man who has lost his junk in an accident might. however, this is a risk I am willing to take for the opportunity to feel I fully inhabit myself, as opposed to being isolated within a mismatched reality, unable to reconcile instinct and stimuli.
I realize this has been less than clinical but I hope it is helpful regardless
I wanted to thank you for a great explanation I’d not heard before. Thank you for your well expressed honesty. It has helped “round out” my research and knowledge. As I’ve said, no one can fully feel as another. We’re all unique “primates” or humans. Those who make flippant remarks. I just cannot “feel” as they do, cannot understand the refusal to see facts or how someone else feels, I just can’t wrap my mind around. Perhaps they too have a genetic, or hormonal issue, I believe they who are un-empathetic or aggressive, ought to also be researched in much the same ways.
too effin right
Dave, waking up “tomorrow with the opposite body” is not a good analogy. Of course we would all freak out (including Caitlyn Jenner after transition surgeries, as she admitted). Having aversion to the body you have had since birth cannot be the same as waking up and finding out your body is gone and you have one you cannot recognize. Clearly not everyone feels good in their own skin as shown in the popularity of plastic surgery. But that has a lot to do with the society we live in. There used to be a time, not so long ago, when people learned to love what they had rather than wishing for what they didn’t have. It built resilience and character. We come in all shapes and few people are in love with their natural bodies but it is entirely possible to fully accept yourself in whatever shape you come. I’m interested in your mention of MTHFR. What “anomaly” are you associating it to?
Interesting article. The dumbed down analogies were useful and very persuasive. Ms Wu does seem to be persuading the reader in a certain direction. The circling of wagons in the comments section, is revealing.
Thanks for the article. I’ve been trying to find more where a lot of studies are in one place. You usually have to do a lot of digging.
I’m a transgender female and agree with a lot of this. I knew at a very young age but was shamed into being a boy, guy, man, whatever and didn’t come out until my early 40’s.
People continue to call it a mental illness and it gets tiring. You develop mental illness because of the depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts that it leaves you with trying to hide/deny your true self. It doesn’t go away and eats at you throughout life.
You can put studies right in front of people about how trans female brains are more like cis female brains but they don’t care. I don’t even argue with them anymore. Smh
I know I have commented – but I forgot to thank you for this compilation of many years of research. It is a scientific paradigm shift in understanding one’s gender is not attached to one’s reproductive organs. To me, as scientific RN, it is amazing knowledge!!! I feel awe at the human body’s many mysteries still not known. To know there is a gender ID structure in the brain- society indeed will have a hard time accepting this. I then go back to why does society understand that a male/female harmed by being a soldier in a bombing, losing their reproductive organs, remain organized in the brain as same as prior? For if organs determined gender, they should be confused as to whom they are. I will utilize your article in a group. If you have a site that can explain in laymen’s terms, I would appreciate a link. Thank you again for publishing this.
Brain mapping works by in a sense “growing” into your body. A person who loses a limb, etc still feels it there because that spot of the body has already been mapped and now there’s no feedback from the body region.
Hi. A thought occurred to me when I was reading this. The research presented in this article spoke of density of cells in an area of the brain as an indicator of gender identity. Could this mean that gender is not a binary male/female subject but rather a spectrum as there must be a great range of densities in different brains.
Thanks
That’s a great question! I’m not aware of any studies showing that the spectrum of brain structure correlates with how non-binary gender identity, but it is certainly possible. We know that how people identify their own gender is certainly non-binary, but we are just scratching the surface of the biology behind this.
I had read in several scientific articles, that geneticists had discovered at least 6 genes for gender ID. If not more. It would make sense to me. May I ask if you are aware that during the triggering of the wrong reproductive organs, autism is genetically triggered? There is a higher percentage of ASD in the trans population, not by much, but it has been noticed by parents. Thank you
I think there is some scientific literature to back this observation that there are higher rates of ASD in the trans population, but the reason for it is still unknown. Since we don’t entirely understand the biology behind ASD or gender identity, it is hard to say if/how they might be biologically linked.
Thank you. Great discussion too. Gives me hope for societal acceptance of this normal fluidity of gender ID.
Hi, thank you so much for putting all of this together. Something I think that sets trans people apart(myself being one; and this is in reference to being transgender often times being compared to bdd, anorexia, among other things) is that anorexic people do not feel euphoria when allowed to have the treatments they want, whereas in trans people, when we receive hormones or surgery, it is often euphoric for us. Taking hormones is the most euphoric part of my day most days. This is usually something completely overlooked or not really even brought up. It’s the same way with the presence of my breasts, it feels very good and euphoric(and not at all in a sexual way; none of the euphoria is sexual, feels more like relaxation, as though there’s this constant anxious tension and it just gets released all of the sudden) to know they’re there. They bring me a lot of comfort and a lot of peace of mind. The fact that the science lines up overwhelmingly with my experience is so relieving. I wish that people would treat us like human beings and not as though we’re some kind of abomination or something. I will definitely be citing this and these studies in the future in defesense of myself and my choice to receive treatment.
Some typos… Sorry. Defense*
People with BIID also experience relief and euphoria at the prospect and realisation of their goal of limb removal. Some sexual in nature some not.
I’m trying to find the research piece. Essentially though, we all for the most feel good getting pumped with hormones, regardless of what they are. This is actually quite an issue. However, I’m not saying there’s anything else linked to that. I mean to say if you know you’re this or that gender the hormones will certainly help. However I’ve had a friend who just turned out to be a gay man feel wonderful on the hormones. I mean he’s not what I’m citing. But I just thought I’d point that out.
The images on here are very misleading, tending to look as if the numbers of deviants of all stripes are equal to that of normals. There should be a huge circle with a tiny area around the edges for the various types of mal-adjusted individuals.
Many thanks to Katherine Wu and her associates for writing this article. I’m a transwomen and advocate and this sort of writing is immensely helpful for our work. I also appreciate the patient and reasoned responses to the comments. I hope there will be more scientific studies on the Trans phenomenon and more articles like this explaining the science to the rest of us.
Responding to Clyde R.’s comment: “Maybe you don’t understand the scientific method but the scientific method is making a hypothesis, and then designing multiple experiments that would disapprove that hypothesis. ” No, sir – maybe YOU don’t understand it. You’re actually trying to school a Harvard Biological and Biomedical Sciences doctoral student on the scientific method? Like, for real???
Thank you for this excellent and enlightening article on recent research into the biology of transgender. Given the complexity of living systems, it is almost intuitive that a single trait of an organism occurs on a spectrum of expressions of that trait within the population, a normal distribution. In each individual, his or her trait represents the cumulative expression of multiple varying influences: genomic, epi-genomic and environmental.
There are over 100 sexually dimorphic areas in the brain yet based in 2 areas this article concludes that trans people have brains more similar to the opposite sex.
Yet in fact only 6% of people have brains that are entirely typical in all areas. For 94% of people their brains are intersex – a mosaic of male and female areas. Therefore this claim of 1 or 2 brain areas giving an opposite sex brain is even more spurious.
All this shows is that this area of the brain may be giving a person erroneous inform about their sex just as a person with BIID may have an incomplete brain body map . We would not then conclude if the body map was missing a leg that the physical leg wasn’t there. It would simply mean that the person’s sensation that their leg should not be there was neurologically based rather delusional.
However as many people with delusions also have brain differences – ie schizophrenia, where they are still considered delusional, it’s not saying very much. We do not affirm a schizophrenics worldview simply because their brains are demonstrably different.
Whilst the small amount of evidence indicates that there are potential genetic factors influencing trans people this does not preclude other aetiologies. It in fact appears that there is a large surge in the number of people now claiming to be trans gender and that many of them have co morbid mental health conditions which suggest this may be a non genetic aetiology.
It is entirely possible that there a tiny number of trans people who are influenced by brain structure as set in the womb and a larger number who have mental health issues. As the brain imaging on the bstc can only be carried out post mortem it is impossible to tell the two apart. But whichever the case the idea that a person really is the opposite sex is unsupported by the evidence.
As the gender is a spectrum – all we can say is that 94% of people have brains structures which have both male and female typical components. It could then be said then brains are largely intersex or that most people are non binary. Yet most people do not identify this way. They recognise that their biological sex is an absolute male or female and that their interests and traits like everyone elses are unique and usually a mix of what is considered male or female typical. However there is scant evidence to link their interests to brain structures.
This article like so many seems determined to give scientific weight to a politically popular theory without any rigour or real analysis of the data.
Please note that American Academy of Pediatrics is legit. 60,000 member, they’ve released a new policy statement in response to edict to repeal protections, 2017. Look for Statement Policy on Transgender. Know the American College of Pediatricians is an SPLC designated hate anti-LGBT group, of 60 members. A psychiatrist who writes from a christian view (IMHO) at Johns Hopkins named Paul McHugh is listed as writing their policy statement, & the way it is written is juvenile, unscientific, and a blatant grab at debunking true researcher’s works. The staff at JH a few years ago, signed a petition to get his paper of “review of research” discredited, so they could all as physicians move on with the true scientific/medical research results obtained by others. There is now suspiciously also a new web site, attempting to debunk transgender/gender neutral science: it states the kids will “naturally grow into their own gender” and “is actually an anti-LGB agenda”. Well color me surprised!! NOW LGB are OK w/the religious? I am retired RN, and have great respect for those who work on finding out what goes on in our biological/genetic bodies. These juvenile attempts to debunk their work are just silly. Also know one’s non-medical opinion is not fact. Know that any/all “mental issues” transgender, gender neutral have are due to the rabid response from our society at this time. They live in fear of being outed due to landlords evicting, boss’s firing, health care is a big issue. Their unhappiness stems from outer society non-acceptance. Indigenous peoples had 5-6 genders accepted until Christian missionaries demanded a binary of them. Transgender, gender neutral have always lived amongst us- you just didn’t know. Why should they return to hiding just to assuage individual ickiness about it? Some people I know are also just thinking over their life, and seeing they are neutral. I am straight. Having been an RN for 30 years I have a really hard time not accepting medical science, or judging a human being.
If you had done any research on those genders, you wouldn’t use them as a talking point. You would know that they often applied it to homosexual (regardless of what these cultures considered, homosexuality is defined as an attraction to the same sex) and infertile males or males with obvious intersex conditions. Throughout history, there is a disproportionate amount of males “outside of the binary” compared to females. Especially in patriarchal societies where sex based roles are enforced either because they don’t conform to what it means to be a man or the family needed more women to fulfill household duties.
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/
Look at that map. An extremely large percentage of these genders apply strictly to males. If transsexualism were really a prevalent condition in the brain not reacting correctly to sex hormones, would it not apply to females in these societies as well? Why is there no evidence or prevalence of these FTM transsexuals existing in those cultures? Is it perhaps because sex based roles (not gender roles. Women have been placed in caretaker positions because of their sex, not gender) are actually considerably harmful to the development of a person’s identity?
ok, so, it sounds like what you’re saying is that since patriarchal oppression stunts the growth of identity, that’s why there’s so much more evidence for MtFs, cuz female assigned people have historically had less opportunity to self actualize, and if a genius level IQ is trumped by a vagina in most cases then so is a desire to be male
but it sounds like what you think you’re saying is that FtMs never existed until the Internet and therefore all the science is wrong and trans identities are imaginary, and case studies like Dr. James Barry can be explained completely by the acquisition of male privilege, but a conspicuous absence of trans men in any given historical record cannot
I’m no expert on two-spirits and can’t answer for the relative prevalence of AMABs vs AFABs in any given culture except to point out that you literally answered your own question
are you a dr? idk nurses specialized in brain development …. idk you took embryo development ect ect….. are you going to now tell us that your opinions arent going to dictate what facts you find? a dr being a christian makes him not reliable and yours reliable? wouldnt in that theory mean he wouldnt be a dr bc they dont believe in modern medicine or science? (some how they believe a cluster of cells in the womb is human but not liberals with their science dont think its human) i think Christians would be less interested in facts, but this dr isnt. thats kinda totally fcked up to assume just bc you are christian that you cant believe in science or facts…. wouldnt being a liberal become a bias the same way a non christian would influence their opinion ? Dr Paul does this okay on top of being a psychiatrist, is a biostatistician…. which is someone who uses or applies mathematics and statistics to varying categories in biology. They design biological experiments primarily in the field of agriculture and medicine; they collect, dissect, and summarize the data, and release information based on the findings of that data.
how is he going to be biased?
I like your thinking. It makes sense to me. I always have trouble with trans people’s claim that they are “the other” gender as if gender were such a binary clear cut identifiable–and yes, objective–thing. Using trans language I could say that I’m a straight “cis” woman who has never enjoyed make-up and so-called “feminine” dresses or playing with dolls and yet this is how trans men claim they have always known they were not girls. I think it is one thing to accept and respect all ways of being and another to re-cliche them. There is no real progress in that. Not liking mascara does not make me a man, and liking it does not make you a woman.
My previous comment was in reply to Timotheus.
“I always have trouble with trans people’s claim that they are “the other” gender as if gender were such a binary clear cut identifiable–and yes, objective–thing.” – Trans individuals do not always have to be the “other” gender. You will not find someone more understanding of the non-binary as a trans person.
“Using trans language I could say that I’m a straight “cis” woman who has never enjoyed make-up and so-called “feminine” dresses or playing with dolls and yet this is how trans men claim they have always known they were not girls.” – Ok so using the language, you are Cis, you just said it. Trans men claim they have known they were not girls because they always thought/acted/dressed/felt/cried/loved/hated like boys, until society told them their masculinity didn’t fit them. You are confusing gender “norms” with gender “identity.” Everyone is individual.
“Not liking mascara does not make me a man, and liking it does not make you a woman.” – I agree with this one.
As an XX male, all I have to say on the subject for those who want to argue that genetics are immutable… you’re wrong. Period.
Elaine, can you elaborate?
I think she meant like, we can use crispr and other gene editing technologies to edit our genomes, so they are not immutable. She’s not wrong. Although no gene editing is going to convert an X chromosome to a Y chromosome, but hey, you do you.
I found this article very interesting, and in glad that unlike so many others I’ve seen it actually sited studies and supporters. However, can you please include some studies/experiments that support the non-binary theory if you’re going to claim that science leads to that conclusion. There were no studies that said anything about non-binary gender identity, and yet the article still said it’s a thing.
Lack of studies never stop these people.
The “survey” from the NCfTE is frightening. It’s frightening that people with thinking minds take it seriously. What are the odds that people who believe they belong to a discriminated group would think that every ill that has befallen them can be blamed on discrimination. It boggles the mind. All of these things in this list are events that happen to people on a daily basis.. yes, even people with white privilege!! The difference is that white people don’t get to blame the bogey man of discrimination for it. They actually have to come to grips with reality and consider that there might be ACTUAL reasons for these things. Considering the amount of mental issues (not just the obvious transgender one – yeah, sorry, 0.3% of a population is an aberration, not a “spectrum”) that these people have is it really surprising that they experience these things (just like everyone else). The fact that they claim it was bias doe not make it so. People claim to have been abducted in flying saucers.. shall we believe all of them too? And do tell how homelessness can be blamed on gender expression? Are people just giving away houses? Homelessness is due to two things and two things only: bad choices and mental illness… I’ll let you take your pick where you think the transgender crowd fits in.
Loss of job due to bias
Eviction due to bias
School bullying/harassment so bad the respondent had to drop out
Teacher bullying
Physical assault due to bias
Sexual assault due to bias
Homelessness because of gender identity/expression
Loss of relationship with partner or children due to gender identity/expression
Denial of medical service due to bias
Incarceration due to gender identity/expression
To live in a world where you still believe enough in the goodness of humanity that the idea that someone would just up and say they’re not comfortable hiring you or leasing a property or giving medical service because you’re trans just doesn’t enter your mind. Must be nice.
Just respect others regardless of what they choose for their own lives.
It’s that simple.
Love it Maxine.
It is ridiculously unscientific to take a small sample size of MtF people (who underwent HRT), compare their brains to control males and females, find one part of the brain where they have more “female structure” and claim that their brains are female and that part of the brain determines one’s gender. That is totally backwards. It illustrates complete bias. In the majority of structures of the brain, pre-hormone trans people have gray matter volumes in-line with their biological sex.
“We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones in order to determine whether gray matter volumes in MTF transsexuals more closely resemble people who share their biological sex (30 control men), or people who share their gender identity (30 control women). Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/
I’m confused as to what you think is unscientific. This study is specifically focused on one brain region–they conclude that the difference they observe in that region support the idea that gender identity is related to brain structure. That seems like a fair conclusion to me. What do you think is “backwards” about it?
Also, I think the people in this study were had not yet undergone HRT–the passage you quote says: ““We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones“
You forgot the remainder of that part of their finding from the link you posted, “However, the putamen was found to be “feminized” in MTF transsexuals. That is, the gray matter volume of this particular structure in the MTF transsexual group was both larger than in males and within the average range of females. Interestingly, in a positron emission tomography (PET) study, it was demonstrated that the left putamen in a sample of MTF transsexuals (n=12), who had no history of estrogen treatment, activated differently to odorous steroids when compared to control males (Berglund et al., 2008). Taken together, these findings lend support to the hypothesis that specific neuroanatomical features are associated with transsexual identity, where the particular role of the putamen requires investigation in future studies.”
As a trans teen, can i just thank you for publishing this article, because you made me feel valid. I’m sick of people i the media discussing about my identity, as if it was something they’d have the right to discuss about. (discussions on the ’causes’ of being trans are a different thing) I’m really happy that people who actually know what they’re talking about try to cover this topic.
Thank you for making me feel valid because in this society, i’m told everyday that i’m not.
You are absolutely valid as a human being and your feelings about who you are are perfectly legitimate. That said, there is much to discuss and still discover about language and meaning surrounding the transgender experience. Right now, a narrative is being imposed which has the same problems that any narrative that is imposed. Plenty of people who do not reject their assigned gender and who accept that the genitals they’re born with determine their gender (male, female, intersex) do not, on the other hand, attach to gender the attributes that trans culture seems to attach. Plenty of these people do not believe that likes and dislikes have anything to do with gender, just with individual diversity. If liking dolls, long hair, pretty dresses and big boobs is a marker for female gender, there must be something wrong with flat chested cis women who don’t like those things and are okay with it.
lol, you misspelled “patriarchy” as “trans culture,” that’s pretty funny
gender identity =/= gender roles
I see from your multiplicity of comments that you are probably sincere. I guess my remarks wherein I explicitly addressed your concerns long before you got here just weren’t good enough. that’s too bad, but I’m sure you and your strawman will be very happy together
There is nothing wrong with a flat-chested cis gender woman who doesn’t conform to society’s standards of gender norms, or who is not stereotypically “feminine.” The key here is that she is cisgendered, and her brain and it’s chemicals match with her biological sex. She feels like a woman without makeup, long hair, dresses, or even with these things because she identifies as a woman/feels like one/has the chemicals of one. Nothing at all out of the ordinary. She may have been feminine growing up (gender normative) or a tomboy growing up (plenty of cisgendered women are).
The key is that while she doesn’t conform to society’s gender norms, also not all trans individuals conform to society’s gender norms. Those likes have nothing to do with gender, but purely a person’s interests.
Many trans women get more focused media attention if they look overtly feminine as you describe. But not all are overtly feminine. What if, while being raised, they knew they were not a boy and were different, but the boy gender norms were pressured on them? What if, now, as a woman, they could finally express themselves in a feminine manner? There is nothing wrong with expressing yourself as you desire, perhaps for the first time in your life. This is why, perhaps, some trans women go very heavily towards “ultra-femme.” At least at first until they get comfortable with their style.
Hope it helps.
Possible scenarios??? Maybe’s all over the place…I don’t think so, you just want it so.
What a lot of crap you have to contend with, just posting an article. Thank you for your gracious responses!
If a paranoid schizophrenic believes that he’s Elvis, should we give him the keys to Graceland, or if he thinks aliens are reading his mind should we tinfoil his house? For some reason we choose not to conform this individual’s perception to reality. The same applies to transgenderism. A transgender person might well “identify” with a different sex but no amount of hormone therapy or surgery will ever change them biologically. A man will never ovulate, a woman will never create sperm. It’s just indulging the delusion. Also, most of the underlying mental health issues remain even after the individual undergoes reassignment surgery. What a surprise! Postmodernism has a lot to answer for.
so by your reasoning, men and women who are infertile aren’t really men or women, right? so what are they then?
It’s a man or woman with a disease or problem that caused that. See, that’s the issue. It isn’t just that they can’t help it people want perpetuated. That I can contend with, but to pretend it’s completely “normal” is absurd. Why is it that every disease, mental illness, sickness or whatever is classified as not being optimal or something to fix, yet gender dysmorphia is completely normal. That’s dangerous thought and leads to genetically mutilation being the “answer” instead of trying to find a much more appropriate treatment.
lol, if genetic “mutilation” is available you’ve just made around a million people rly rly happy
I don’t understand why “normal” and “something to fix” have to be mutually exclusive. people with cancer are normal. people with bipolar disorder are normal. but of course that’s what you really mean, innit, that we’re all mentally ill and mentally ill people are icky.
you seem to have missed the part where we do generally consider our condition treatable and in fact that’s the point of “mutilation” so again, what you really mean is, “I think this is icky and therefore the treatment for DYSPHORIA as agreed upon by 98% of medical professionals isn’t good enough for me and I think these freaks need shock therapy.”
your terminology and syntax are bad and you should feel bad
your logic and reasoning are bad and you should feel bad
“the typical assigned sexes are “male” and “female,” often designated at birth”
Yes, but not by some random whim or hunch, they are designated by the biological presence of male and female sexual organs, except in rare cases where mutations exist.
“many of the studies that have been conducted – particularly psychological studies – have since been widely discredited ”
Discredited by whom? The truth is that most of the scientific evidence still supports the fact that transgenderism is a psyhological condition. However, due to social pressures, many scientists are finding it increasingly difficult to study this field in an objective and independent manner. Any study not fitting the current social narrative run the risk of being unfunded or suppressed. This is hardly conducive to good science. The pursuit of scientific truth should be allowed to proceed unfettered by social constructs or political expediencies, regardless of how uncomfortable some may be with the results of the study. People can be free to debate the conclusions, but the science should not be silenced before the fact. Do we really want to return to the time of the Inquisitions where people felt threatened knowledge and sought to suppress scientific development?
y’know, I was more or less* with you until you conflated the political interests of a tiny and objectively persecuted** minority with a return to sweeping theocratic oppression
*I guess the removal of Gender Identity Disorder from the DSM-V isn’t good enough for you when discussing the credibility of psych studies, so I can only assume you personally are an internationally respected mental health professional with conflicting research of your own
**spoiler alert: we the trans community suffer far more on the cross of religion than under the microscope of study
Hi. There’s a lot of comments here so I’m sorry if this has already been mentioned. Regarding the first two diagrams you present, on gender identity and sexual orientation, you may want to consider not using “Two-Spirit” as an intermediary between male and female gender identities. This term originates from and thus belongs to Native American communities, and I think some Native American LGBT folks might find it inappropriate to use that term to refer to LGBT folks outside of their communities. Instead, perhaps use “nonbinary,” which I believe is the more mainstream/technical umbrella term for anyone who identifies outside of the gender binary. Secondly, though less importantly, the idea that pansexuality means that gender does not factor into sexual preference may not be accurate for all people who identify as pansexual. I personally identify as pansexual as a more inclusive term over bisexual, acknowledging that I can be attracted to people of any gender. However, I would not say that I am attracted to people *in spite of* their gender, as I still subscribe to different preferences corresponding to different genders. This may not be the same for all pansexual-identified people, but I think that the subset it is true for may be substantial enough to render your diagram/definition incomplete.
I am a bit confused as to why Native Americans consider “two-spirit” to belong *exclusively* to them. Yes, it is a term they created, with a meaning they assigned to it… but why can this not be a case of, “if the shoe fits, wear it”? Native Americans do not have a monopoly on spirtuality, nor do they have a monopoly on “transgenderism” (for lack of a better term). If a spiritual transgender person identifies with the “two-spirit” nomenclature, why can they not adopt and celebrate it as well?
Cultural misappropriation is where someone takes ill-conceived stereotypes and parades around in them, mocking (intentionally or inadvertently), such as the Washington Redskins mascot (and I think it’s vile that they want to keep that name and mascot because “it’s who they are” despite the fact that it’s a caricature that blatantly stereotypes an entire race of people — if they were the “Washington Negroes” and their mascot had fat lips, a big nose, and an afro, people would LOSE THEIR #%@*). Some (non-Native American) transgender people identifying as two-spirited is not misappropriation, but simply cross-cultural adoption; it’s happened with other identities and concepts, and for the most part both the “donor” culture as well as the “receiving” culture become richer for it. Not all transgender people consider themselves two-spirited, but there are those who feel the term more accurately describes them than “non-binary”; if they feel their spirit is both male and female, who is anyone else to deny them the label of two-spirited?
You seem to be at least a somewhat reasonable person, so I do hope you see this and respond.
My issue with today’s science is that it is unbelievably biased based on political norms of today’s society. Sure, science has always needed to deal with politics, but as of late it seems to be something that’s extremely burdened by expectations, thanks to identity politics.
My concern with the studies shown are really the continued outcomes of science today. It, nearly 100% of the time, without fail, has concluded exactly what the study set out hoping to find. That’s never good. Confirmation bias is scary. Obviously I’m not talking things of minute importance, but things the team would have a hard time accepting if not true. You even mentioned the ethics of it essentially “being in their head” earlier. What would be ethically wrong with someone having a mental issue that convinces them they are of another gender? They can’t help that, just as they can’t help it if it is a brain difference. And I guess I don’t fully understand why it isn’t a mental issue when they received less hormones during pregnancy that caused the dysmorphia they have today.
For example, I have OCD, yet I can’t help that I have it, but it’s still a mental disorder. It isn’t “normal” to have. The answer in my mind is purely politics. There’s this incessant need to prove it’s completely fine, but when was it not completely okay? They can’t help it, sure, but why is it not a mental disorder? See, the issue I have with politics seeping into science is that it obscures the truth. This is disheartening because all you’re doing is hurting transgendered people. For example, to even suggest trying to find a medicine or something else to help them feel happy in their own skin would lead to outcry. Meaning you would rather put people through the horrible process of surgery and hormone replacement without even trying to find something better because it’s “solved.” No it isn’t. There has to be a better way to help them.
Then you move on to state there’s this “spectrum” of genders. You didn’t really prove that at all. If you’re referring to specifically gender, sure there are people who are more or less masculine and feminine, etc, but society has always understood that. Where do you think the term “Tom boy” came from? You’re still either male or female regardless of your femininity or masculinity. Why should that even remotely change? It seems to me people just want to feel special, but that’s what a name is for. That’s what is designed to differentiate you. Male and female is more used to determine your genitalia.
I have no doubt you probably just want to call me a bigot or this or that, but the truth is that I legitimately care about transgendered or really anyone who’s suffering. I just hate the fact that science has been so tainted by political expectations that I don’t recognize it anymore. Science is about truth, not feelings.
(a) it’s not a verb, it’s an adjective
“transgender”
(b) no, your OCD is not normative. however, it does not make YOU and YOUR EXISTENCE less “normal.”
PARTICULARLY from a medical standpoint. in fact, I’d say that in a scientific sense, OCD is pretty frickin run of the mill. certainly it’s not gonna cost you any legal rights in and of itself.
unlike being transgender
htf, literally, SRSLY, do you people not understand that any political agenda driving the research has been set in motion by arguments seeking to deny us agency over our own bodies after DECADES of “other therapies”? that the whole entire reason we want a definitive “cause” is so that busybodies telling us how to manage our lives and our “conditions” can finally eff off for the long haul? jfc
you’re 10000% bringing your own value judgments to the table about this “horrible process” when you could be doing something useful like helping us protest the fact that many states will not allow documents to be changed without a minimum number of “horrible” procedures completed. but no, you’d rather concern troll about how grossed out you are. do you also shame women who get boob jobs? cuz if so you’re a total intestinal dropping
are you aware that the several billion dollar a year plastic surgery industry wasn’t invented by trans people
It is disturbing to read all the vitriol being expressed. I would like to add a few comments that I do not believe have yet been expressed. (If they have, and if I missed them, I apologize.)
My doctorate is in neuroscience, but I am most assuredly not an expert on gender, so feel free to take this post with a grain of salt (or as my college physics teacher used to say, “with a grain of malt”!).
A number of posters are making a mistake that is common is discussions relating to human perception, behavior, thought, emotions, feelings, etc.; that is, whether or not it is “biological.” Unless one believes that one’s own – or another’s – thoughts are being controlled by an outside force (at the risk of sounding silly, by an alien mind probe, for example), I hope we can agree that the aforementioned characteristics are all epiphenomena of the brain. As such, they are all undeniably “biological.”
Colloquially, there are two ways in “biological” may be used. The first is to distinguish it from “psychological,” the second is to mean that it is genetic.
The notion of something being psychological vs. biological is perhaps better stated as psychological vs. “organic.” While this distinction does have value, it is important to keep in mind (pun unintended) that it is a distinction that is mostly a reflection of our incomplete knowledge, in particular with respect to “size.” For example, suppose someone begins to exhibit changes in mood, personality, or cognitive ability; or for that matter, coordination. If we can detect a lesion – say, a tumor, or vascular change – we term it “organic.” But if the change in the brain is too small for us to detect with current imaging techniques, we term it “psychological.” But the observed changes in mood, behavior etc. are certainly caused by a physical change in the brain; this could be a change in synaptic connections; or in neurotransmitter levels; or neurotransmitter receptor sensitivity, among other possibilities. Again, in both cases, a physical change has occurred in the brain; the salient difference being that in one case it is large enough for us to detect, while in the other case it is too small. The point I am trying to make is that a behavior (or perception, or mood, etc.) that is deemed “psychological” is due to physical changes in the brain, a fact that is all too often overlooked.
The second point which seems to have taken on great importance in discussions of sexual preference and gender identity, is whether there is a genetic “cause.” The often unspoken rationale seems to be that if it is due to genetics it is “real’” or not the person’s fault; whereas if it is not due to genetics, it is at best, a choice; at worst, imaginary. This too reflects a lack of understanding of brain function. I must reiterate that ALL aspects of a person’s behavior and thought processes are due to the functioning of the trillion or so neurons in the brain, and the tens (or hundreds) of synapses through which neurons communicate with one another. Rest assured, that everyone of us – no matter how “normal” you may consider yourself to be – is at the mercy of our synapses (and hormones). Genes certainly contribute to our brain organization, but so do epigenetic factors, as well exposure to hormones (both during development, and afterwards), as well the environment in which we grew up and live. As a scientist, I am certainly interested in understanding the relative contributions of these factors to being transgender. However, I do not, and hope society will follow suit, use these to judge the veracity of the claims of transgender individuals that the gender to which they feel differs from their “biological” sex. (I use quotes because there is no single absolute determinant of biological sex; is it chromosomes? appearance of the genitals? a combination?) I used to date a woman with a transgender child. I accompanied her to meetings of a support group, and met many transgender children (and their parents). The degree of suffering endured by these children was (and is) horrific. I would like to think that no one here could remain unmoved by their suffering.
Last, but certainly not least, is the issue of whether or not being transgender is a mental illness. It is important to understand that what is and is not a mental illness is arbitrary. Unlike the speed of light, or Planck’s constant, mental illness is defined according to human-defined criteria, which change over time, and in different societies. In reading threads such as this one, and many others like it, I get the sense all too often, those individuals who are the most offended by transgender individuals, want to label them as mentally ill as a means to justify their intolerance. Oddly enough, the lack of tolerance is often expressed by those with strongly held religious beliefs; I find this both sad and paradoxical, in that most religions are supposedly based on the notion that G-d loves everyone.
I am well aware that opinions expressed on forums are rarely changed. I can only hope that my post will result in at least some participants viewing transgender individuals in a different light.
Respectfully,
Larry
Well said, Larry. Thank you for your perspective.
THANK you for this response
I am absolutely floored by the way people will accept “you’re not you when you’re hungry, have a Snickers” without question, but the idea that brain/body interaction on a lifetime basis has turned out to be just a wee bit more fluid and complicated than homonculus theory is somehow wildly unacceptable
Hello Laurence Borden,
What is your view of the role of instinct in biology/psychology. I appreciate that gender expression varies between cultures and epochs. Is gender itself, though, a basic instinct like birds what build certain types of nests peculiar to the bird, or who know when it is time to fly south and where to fly to?
My personal experience as an early onset transsexual (under three years of age) is that dysphoria is like a psychic “toothache” that pounds relentlessly, and is at least an order of magnitude more intense than the sex drive. It is more akin to thirst or breathing. I suggest these latter analogies as the BTSc is in the hypothalamus. The odd thing, Laurence, is the deep and immediate relief from hormone replacement (HRT) therapy and by “transsexing”–migrating, so to speak, to the gender of affirmation. HRT feels, at least in my case though others report similar effects, as if water or breathing is restored after being withheld. It is also my understanding the hypothalamus regulates some forms of instinctive bonding, leading me to speculate that gender identity directs the individual to their “gender group.”
I wonder how you view this inasmuch as for me the biological and psychological are very blurred. If it is instinct, and you have not said it is, are there instincts that are mentally unsound if they manifest in one group (females) and not in another (males)? Was homosexuality once considered an illness because homosexuas were not doing their heterosexual duties per their God-given instincts?
V-
Jesus – who gives a f? How do all of you have time for this? Have you nothing more important to do?
No Larry I won’t take this post with a grain of salt but will take it as a Big Pile of Bull Shit !!!
Can someone help me out a little bit please. Is this article based on pure facts or is this still theoretical ??
From a detached viewpoint, it’s scientifically interesting, to be sure, but I can’t help but comment on its cisnormativity.
Wu repeatedly uses expressions like “insufficient feminization” and “exposed to inadequate levels of estrogen during development” to explain why people are transgender. In other words, being transgender isn’t a normal human variation, it’s an aberration, something terrible to be fixed. While I appreciate being upgraded from being mentally ill to merely having a devastating birth defect, it’s not on par with how transgender people think or speak of ourselves. Nor am I happy with the intimation that the ultimate goal is a world in which people like me do not exist.
She also appears to be very ambivalent on whether she imagines a transgender person’s gender as a choice or biological reality. She’ll say, on the one hand, “it is not a conscious choice”, but then later talk about our “chosen sex.”
One might also take issue with her choice of “biological gender” over a more neutral term such as “sex assigned at birth” (or better yet, “gender assigned at birth”), thus reifying this idea that there is a “true” gender which transgender people are at odds with — which really takes us right back into “choice” and “mental illness” territory, despite her protests to the contrary.
I think, first and foremost, Wu needs to decide which side of the divide she’s on, and then (assuming the side she wants to be on is ours) sit down with some trans advocates who can help her with her language. As it stands, she has a long way to go before transgender people could call her an ally.
first off its nothing that can be fixed
to cure the emotional aspect of it is to live by gender identity
but i consider me being a girl with a birth defect my male body is that birth defect
theres far more to this then this science but a way we can fix it all is to abolish gender roles
its hard to view what the world would look like at that point only that it would be better but ppl would need to grow into it and when they do theyd see ppl alot differently then any of us see ppl
and the grossed out feeling some anti lgbt ppl get when seeing a guy in a dress would cease to exist the same way that girls getting civil rights to wear pants did back in that era ppl were just as disgusted with a girl wearing pants as some our of a guy wearing a dress are today
as for gender identity thats hard to say the stigmatization of gender and the differentiating of gender roles would no longer exist but differents in body would still exist making transgenders to still exist but whether theyd be called transgender if both sexes are treated 100% equal
However, every chromosome, your hormones, your body proportions and composition all say otherwise. Genders are different, when did it become derogatory to be born a certain gender? It’s simply a biological categorization that is implicitly unbiased. So why does it matter? Why cant you be a boy, since you were born a boy and just be effeminate? Unfortunately re-defining what the word gender means does not change the truth of it. It is not a “social construct”. If someone is grossed out by a guy in a dress so what, you can’t make everyone agree with your lifestyle but changing your definition of gender does not correct that. There are differences in males and females, there are. Why is it so important to white wash all differences in people? Why is that what will fix everything? I thought we were supposed to celebrate our differences. I’m happy to accommodate the trans community and call them either him or her depending on how they choose to identify, however I cannot throw out basic biology and will not make up words to conform to a personal d illusion. Not trying to be harsh, but the minds inability to accept a physical reality is a d illusion. I fully support the LGBT community but blurring facts isn’t helping anyone.
People capable of a ‘detached viewpoint’ don’t use terms like ‘cisnormativity’.
Schizophrenia is linked to abnormalities in the brian. Apparently there’s at least one person on here who’s offended by the scientific evidence stated in this article that there’s a misappropriation of chemicals that leads to the feeling of being in the wrong body. Should schizophrenic people challenge the idea that they have a mental illness just because they speak to animals? After all it’s their brains fault, right? Among the dozens of comments I read, one of them stated that missionaries forced tribes into accepting M and F roles. I certainly don’t deny that this has ever happened, (unfortunately) but I do know that I’ve watched documentaries on undiscovered people groups where gender roles were similar to that of most developed nations and they had never met a missionary. Further more there are counties that flat out reject Christianity and they have similar gender roles as the rest of the world. It seems that the oberservation of rare occurrences is being used to make something normal. Schizophrenia runs in my family and I’ve delt with the difficult task of trying to help family members understand that they have a mental illness. For years I believed that if they could grasp this idea they could help themselves. I’ve come to the conclusion that many mentally ill people are not able to reach a conclusion that their feelings will not allow them to reach. They really believe that the tv is talking to them because they really feel that way. Why does the LGBQ not add MI to support the mentally ill who really feel that they are the way they are and they should just be left alone? FYI I’m a Christian and a white male and a pastor for that matter. I have zero problem with the idea that gender confusion is based on malfunctioning chemicles in the brain as this article seems to indicate. I have no problem with the people who are struggling with this issue. Not anymore than I have with people who struggle with any mental disorder. I recognize that the term disorder is offensive, but if a faulty transmission of the proper chemicles is to blame then how can this not be considered a disorder? As a result of my family history I’ve struggled with depression. Suicide is much more likely in my family than the normal rate. I consider these things to be brain based, chemically caused disorders. Is it just that people don’t want to call it a disorder because it hurts their feelings? Why is it that there is a push to do away with all genders just because a very small amount of the population who didn’t receive the correct amount of a chemical doesn’t want to feel left out? It’d be like me pushing for an end to the labeling of all mental disorders just because me and my family have to deal with one, wouldn’t it? I’m not angry with anyone. Yes, I believe 100% in the Bible, but I recognize that those dealing with these issues are human beings with feelings. God also recognizes this and he loves all of you as much as me with my faults. I expect my comments to be taken offensively, but I’m genuinely curious about these things. I’m not trying to force my my ideas on anyone, I’m trying to understand.
Therapists will look for signs of non-trans issues, such as schizophrenia, in their patients as part of the intake process. Being a female is not a mental disorder.
According to the study in this article it is an issue caused by issues with the brain. Schizophrenia is not a mental illness in the sense that it’s disassociated from the brain. You can actually see the difference in the brain of schizophrenics. This study states that they can now see the difference in the brains of those who do not identify with their born gender. Not only can they see a difference, but they even say they’ve pinpointed the chemical imbalance that leads to this issue. I’m not trying to call those who are transgender mentally ill, but apparently there is an identifiable reason why they feel the way they do. My issue is with the attempt to make what is normal, M F gender roles, somehow immoral just because some people suffer from this birth defect.(Forgove the term but that’s what this article states) There are M’s and F’s when all goes right with the developmental process of the brain. We should recognize that this is not hateful or somehow religiously forced. Men and women are different. If they aren’t different then there is no argument for being transgender. In all honesty I don’t understand your response to my post. You say therapist will look for signs of non-trans issues, but I’m not claiming that trans people are schizophrenic or anything like that. Only that they are different because of an issue with their brain.
Hello Maria,
I am responding to you you about early onset gender dysphoria. When I referred to “baked in” I did not mean cooking as much as I mean gender identity occurs prenatally, likely in the first trimester. That’s what I mean, not the act of making meals. Sorry for the confusion.
What did it feel like, you ask? I was 28-months old, according to my mother. I was playing in a sandbox. I simply “knew” I was a girl. I knew what daddies were, and boys were, and men were, and that was perfectly okay and I had not problem with them. But I was not like them and never would be. A bit later I tried to explain that my parents had made a mistake and asked them, thinking they would help me, to change my outer presentation to match my inner being. I wanted to grow my hair out and to wear dresses and girls’ shoes. I wanted my mother to teach me the ways of womn and I wanted to go join the girls.
This was *my* idea. No one put me up to it. In fact my parents were horrified when I said I was a girl and vigorously tried to disabuse me of my assertion. By why? I was not and never would be a boy. If a person takes Christ into their heart, they don’t usually do it because they like attending church (like cooking). It’s the other way around. If Jesus comes into your heart, you just *know.* It is beyond words. It is beyond logic.
Children know what they are. Like cis people know what they are, trans people likewise know about themselves. So many folks are putting the cart before the horse. Gender identity develops before kids play “doctor.” We are innocently unaware of what the “equipment” is intended for. We just gravitate. I just *knew* I belonged with the cows and not with the bulls.
If gender is a linear spectrum and not binary, how do the “MtF Transsexual brains more closely resemble female brains” studies even make sense? Shouldn’t male, female, and ‘in between’ brains all be plotted on this spectrum of yours? At the very least, the image showing male neurons, female neurons, and transsexual neurons being identical to the female set contradicts the articles own claims. More likely, it is simply a lie.
Gender theorists want to plot gender as this orthogonal spectrum where everybody is a little bit different, full of men, women, both-ands’, neither’s, and others. But all their research begins with the assumption that there is such a thing as a physically recognizable ‘man’s brain’, a physically recognizable ‘female’s brain’, and that finding some tiny structure in one sex that more closely resembles the other is proof of something. Even within this article, the only truth revealed is that the word ‘gender’ itself is what’s fluid, meaning whatever the progressive needs it to mean from one sentence to the next.
The twin studies are also meaningless. Certainly, some men believe they are ‘actually women’, and they believe this with a deep conviction. I am prepared to believe that whatever is so deeply wrong with such a person could be influenced by genetics. But just because their horrible situation has a genetic influence doesn’t make their conviction true, any more than a genetic cause to schizophrenia would make the sufferer’s delusions true.
One also has to consider the political side. Ask yourself; if somebody did a study and found the opposite conclusions, what would happen to their career? You don’t have to ask, you can find out with a simple Google search. Anybody who has concerns about, say, giving children HRT, or the suicide rates of post-op transsexuals, or that the definition of gender is not rigorous to have a basis in science at all is simply chased off the stage. It’s not a coincidence that this Harvard paper acts as if this systematic deconstruction of their entire argument doesn’t exist:
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf
I don’t think they are malign, they probably never read it or heard about it. If they admitted to reading it, they would probably lose their jobs. That is the nature of the field.
What is the point of a ‘scientific inquiry’ where only one conclusion is permitted from the start? Ask Lysenko.
There needs to be more studies that compares brains of various individuals at different ages without any hormone therapy involvement and more importantly an extremely larger sampling size. It seems some scientists have jumped to conclusions without doing adequate comparisons in different types of people and personality types (i.e. tomboy/effeminate male), sexual preferences, upbringing and environment. Also scientists need to look at what effect hormonal imbalances of the mother might have on the unborn children. I’m not saying transsexualism is a choice, but there may be other variables, not just genetics that lead to someone feeling they were placed into the wrong sex at birth.
I don’t think any of the studies are conclusive enough to make any legal judgements.
ofc there are many many many variables the point of this research isnt to explain everything but to show there there is much more to this and that biology is proven to not be 2 sided as alot of ppl want to think
it just proves that just cause your body may apear as 1 sex doesnt mean its your true gender
the research is ongoing were going to keep researching until everyone can feel comfortable in there life and noone has to feel confined or as if they need to be how there born or even that they need to pick 1 or the other
but so they can feel truly free
if you confine yourself to only things from society implemented gender roles on 1 side you will restrict yourself from something youd otherwise have enjoyed w/o the gender role
Again, it does not point to that. This whole study seems setup with a presupposed answer. There are a number of variables, and this study is looking only at a cluster of large cells in the hypothalamus, of people who may or may not have began hormone treatments. Of this one cluster of cells that MAY have an affect on sexual behavior, which is entirely separate from your gender anyways so really has no meaning, but these few similarities found are being used as proof that you can be born in the wrong body? No, this is not sound science. It ignores every other factor. I have no doubt people may feel one way or another but that doesn’t change the fact that you were indeed born male or female. Let me say it this way, the mechanics of evolution shows that life is meant to propagate. That is why sex is such a strong urge, it is how we pass our genes, it’s why we protect our children and love when you have grand kids. It’s the growth of your gene pool. The only way to pass those genes onto another person naturally is with a genetic male and female. A trans man who transitions to a woman cannot have a child. A trans woman to man cannot produce viable sperm. So how then can gender be a social construct? That’s a gender role that is necessary for life to continue. Males and females are different in so many ways and it’s beautiful. I love my wife for her feminine traits and she loves me for my masculine ones. It’s nothing to be ashamed of.
the genitalia you are born with in no way defines your true gender identity
the point of these study is to confirm that genitalia is not a defining facter
so yes you can be born with male anatomy and be a girl cause your anatomy does not define who you are gender identity is who you are
this science is to prove that things are way more complicated that just cause your born with male anatomy it does not make you a male
This blog post is filled with a lot of trans propaganda and also a lot of straight BS!
At the end of the day, no matter what conclusions the medical sciences community agree upon, trans people are not the biological sex that they attempt to present themselves as. Here in the real world, most people across the globe, for the sake of romance/sex/relationships, care a great deal (as in deal-breaker), about the biological sex of the person they may get to know.
With regards to relationships, sexual attraction/sexuality is what determines what type of human being we are interested in having a relationship with. Sexual attraction. Not gender attraction.
We all know by now (or should know by now) that gender and biological sex, are not the same things. Gender is who you are (sense of self, thoughts, and feelings). Biological sex is what you are (sex chromosomes, primary sex and reproductive organs, and the ability to seed or give birth).
While the pro-trans community is busy trying to redefine biological sex and or trying to replace it and its importance with gender, the truth remains as it always has. 98% of the world (including almost all trans people because most of them are NOT people with an intersex condition); fall within TWO GROUPS of human beings.
Group 1: A person having XY sex chromosomes, male primary sex and reproductive sex organs, male secondary sex characteristics, and the ability to seed birth.
Group2: A person having XX sex chromosomes, female primary sex and reproductive organs, female secondary sex characteristics, and the ability to give birth.
These two groups are known as biological sex by the majority of the medical sciences community. No matter what label they have, these two groups will ALWAYS exist and will ALWAYS be the most important factor for most people when choosing a sexual partner/relationship. No matter what words get spun, no matter what studies take place; these two groups are how we as human beings seek out relationships to support our natural desires. Desires that can not be changed by words spoken by the LGBT community.
As a straight male, I only consider relationships with biological females. That is a natural desire. Just as natural and unwavering as a homosexual man, only having an interest in other biological males. Speaking of which, what is it that makes a man gay? Gender has nothing to do with it. What makes a man gay, is his desire to be with someone who is the same biological sex as he is.
With regards to the brains of trans people being that which matches their gender identity, no such conclusions have been made by the majority of the medical science community. Even if such a conclusion had been reached, that would not negate the reality of the entire human body and its biological sex.
“Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic
“Abstract
Whereas a categorical difference in the genitals has always been acknowledged, the question of how far these categories extend into human biology is still not resolved. Documented sex/gender differences in the brain are often taken as support of a sexually dimorphic view of human brains (“female brain” or “male brain”). However, such a distinction would be possible only if sex/gender differences in brain features were highly dimorphic (i.e., little overlap between the forms of these features in males and females) and internally consistent (i.e., a brain has only “male” or only “female” features).
Here, analysis of MRIs of more than 1,400 human brains from four datasets reveals extensive overlap between the distributions of females and males for all gray matter, white matter, and connections assessed. Moreover, analyses of internal consistency reveal that brains with features that are consistently at one end of the “maleness-femaleness” continuum are rare. Rather, most brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males.
Our findings are robust across sample, age, type of MRI, and method of analysis. These findings are corroborated by a similar analysis of personality traits, attitudes, interests, and behaviors of more than 5,500 individuals, which reveals that internal consistency is extremely rare. Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.”
Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.abstract
“Is the Brain Gendered? A Q&A with Harvard’s Catherine Dulac
Indeed, it is assumed that the male and the female brains are very different because males and female behaviors differ so significantly. But over the last few decades, neuroscientists have been looking for major anatomical differences and did not find that many. Actually, they’ve found surprisingly few differences: more neurons or more neuronal spines here and there in one sex or the other, with great variations from one individual to the other but that’s about it. So there is a paradox between this apparent similarity of the brains of males and females and the strikingly different behaviors they engage in.”
Source: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/
first off your wrong there are actually alot of ppl now who will date trans ppl and refferr to them by gender identity
idk what your on about biology is not a defining factor to who you are relationships are always between ppl who love each other so if 1 person cant get over the fact that there transgender can you even call that love
i know several lesbian relationships based between trans lesbians and cis lesbians
this whole thing is not related to relationships its related to respect if you see a transgirl you treat them like any other transgirl
idk how relationships got brought into this there far more complicated
but as for me i get oddly hit on alot tho mostly by straight guys but im only into girls but i have been hit on by lesbians all of which knew i was trans
ive even been hit on by girls i would have been interested in but i tyrn them down you want to know why?
this may be unrelated but its cause i cant feel love you want to know why i cant feel love?
its cause the 24 years i spent hiding who i was cause i was afraid of society i never learned how to love all i learned was how to hate i hate society for all they did to the trans ppl forcing a ton of ppl to live by biology
tearing away childrens childhood and freedom sending kids to conversion therapy
making kids fear who they are forcing a transgirl into a boys rest room which has resulted in the loss of countless lives including the loss of 1 of my few friends
do you know what its like to not even know what love feels like
every time someone in my family dies i feel nothing
my dad helps me alot both financially and offers assistence in varioous things
hes had 2 heart attks and i dont feel anything except that i might lose the help hes given me
i can feel empathy i can care for another even be a little sad in there struggles but i can never love and i hate every part of it
this is what happens when you give any kid reason to fear there true gender identity and it needs to stop
i might be venting at this point tho my point is biology doesnt define you and noone should ever beilieve it should in any way
“first off your wrong there are actually alot of ppl now who will date trans ppl ”
Reality doesn’t agree with you or perhaps your idea of what “a lot” means is very different than that of mine and many others. Can we agree that a lot of trans women are beat and or killed? And so why do you think that happens? Because a lot of men are down with dating trans women?!
“idk what your on about biology is not a defining factor to who you are”
I made it clear that gender is WHO you are and biological sex is WHAT you are.
“relationships are always between ppl who love each other so if 1 person cant get over the fact that there transgender can you even call that love”
The more comments I read by you, the more it appears to be that you are not in touch with reality. Again, what makes a person gay or straight is based upon the biological sex they are attracted to. Do gay guys even consider dating a biological woman with a vagina? No! They don’t because they are drawn to people who are the same biological sex as they are; people who have a penis. That is what they lust for. Gender does not decide what type of sex organs you have. Biological sex does.
“this whole thing is not related to relationships its related to respect if you see a transgirl you treat them like any other transgirl”
Again, were you paying attention? I said that because of how important biological sex is to sexual attraction, that biological sex matters a great deal when it comes to relationships and how each sex sees sex. We as human beings are very sexual beings. It is in our nature. Sex matters a great deal to most people anywhere in the world. If there were no such thing as sexual attraction, then there would be no argument about trans women vs cisgender women. Everything having to do with trans women has to do with biological sex for the purpose of sexual attraction and the ability to give birth.
“but as for me i get oddly hit on alot tho mostly by straight guys but im only into girls but i have been hit on by lesbians all of which knew i was trans.”
So you say. I can’t tell the number of times I’ve heard other trans women claim the same.
“ive even been hit on by girls i would have been interested in but i tyrn them down you want to know why?”
No! I do not want to know why.
“i might be venting at this point tho my point is biology doesnt define you and noone should ever beilieve it should in any way”
Again, biological sex defines WHAT you are no matter what you choose to believe. One very annoying issue when it comes to trans people is that so many of you demand that the world forgets your biological sex. Less than 1/3 of trans people ever undergo SRS. That means MOST trans women have a penis. Yet you expect straight men to just be cool with that reality and want to date a trans woman?!?!?! Forget love! Before love two people have to get to know one another. Two people have to start dating. Most of us straight men have no desire to date someone who has a penis. That is what makes us straight.
so basicly your saying all the many many many trans lesbians in a happy relationship are not real? you are mentally fked up i only ever get hit on by straight guys and lesbians who know im trans they hit on me because im a girl
i will admit there are alot of crimes towards us a problem that is and will slowly fix itself
as soon as trump goes bye bye
but there are also alot of trans happily married to someone who shares there orientation
some ppl may be shallow but a transgirl finds love to someone attracted to a girl not a guy
i was only hit on by 1 gay guy but that was before i came out as trans and im still trying to figure out why he thought i was into guys
straight girls are not into trans lesbians cause there not into girls and lesbians are more often ok with trans lesbians
so to say ppl are attracted to genitalia is incorrect and a trans girl can easily be as much a girl as any cis girl
“so basicly your saying all the many many many trans lesbians in a happy relationship are not real?”
No! What I’m saying is exactly what I wrote. Nothing less and nothing more. I could post dozens of links to support everything that I’ve posted but I have no doubt that that would make a difference to you as you are clearly set on remaining on the path of wilful ignorance.
“you are mentally fked up”
If you want to start name calling, I can say the same and much more about you. There are several reasons why 41% of trans people attempt and or commit suicide yet the rate for the rest of the population is at less than 5%. My brain is in-sync with my body. I am exactly what nature intended. We both know that all the same is not true for you and all other trans people.
“i will admit there are alot of crimes towards us a problem that is and will slowly fix itself as soon as trump goes bye bye”
LOL!!! I’m just going to assume that you are a very young person. I’m not a Trump supporter but the fact is, that many people who voted for him, have many strong opinions that are against trans people in various ways. By your logic, are you under the impression that once Trump is gone, those people will stop believing what they believe?!?!
Again, most violence against trans people has to do with angry straight men feeling “tricked” by trans women. That was before Trump and it will remain after Trump.
“some ppl may be shallow”
No matter how much BS comes out of your mouth, there is NOTHING shallow about a straight man not wanting to date/be with someone who also has a penis just like him. Get your brain out of fantasy land. Here, in reality, our sexual desires, are out of our control. We can not choose what turns us on and what turns us off. And before dating, sexual attraction happens first. If I were looking for a date at a bar, I wouldn’t go to a gay bar. Why? Because I don’t date guys. I already know that and that comes before even getting to know what someone is like within their mind. Again, you are so focused on what you want people to do, that you’ve lost touch with the reality of what people actually do, that which is not even within our control.
“straight girls are not into trans lesbians”
Straight biological girls are into biological males who also behave and present themselves like real men. You’re not a straight biological girl. You don’t get to decide what they do and do not like or do.
“so to say ppl are attracted to genitalia is incorrect and a trans girl can easily be as much a girl as any cis girl”
Again, you’re welcome to your opinions. However, that does not mean what you claim, is reality. I asked you what makes a person gay, and you failed to answer that simple question. Why don’t you look up the word homosexual? It has nothing to do with gender identity and everything to do with biological sex. Again, it’s called SEXUAL ATTRACTION. NOT gender attraction. SEXUALITY. Not genderality.
I know myself and every biological male I know, have ZERO interest in dating a trans woman. Why? Because we are only interested in biological women. We have ZERO interest in dating someone with a penis. And most of us plan on having children. Why on earth would we choose to date a trans woman, when there are millions of real biological women available?!?!?! Should we date trans women because it would make trans women happy?! Dating/relationships, are the one choice that NOBODY has the right to tell you who you should like and be willing to be with.
I, like all straight men, LOVE vaginas! I love that biological women, almost always have sweet voices that sound nothing like mine. Someday I want to have children with the woman I love. Life is filled with drama and so I try to stay away from as much of it as I can. All of the above applies to biological women, not trans women.
You keep repeating that trans girls are just as much girls as cis girls. If that were true then my above paragraph would apply to trans girls but it does not. A trans woman is a trans woman. The definition of a trans woman is someone who IS a biological male with the gender identity within their mind that is most commonly associated with biological females. That is medical science fact, no matter what BS you keep spitting out.
40% of trans commit suicide because ppl like you make them feel as if they cant be who they truly are
and what makes a person straight or gay is depending on there gender and the gender there attracted to
you do not see very often a transgirl dating a straight girl in matter of fact a straight girl even 1 highly supporting of trans rights is more likly to break up if the person there dating transitions solely cause there not attracted to girls there may be sick ppl who cant get the idea threw there sick skull that a trans girl is a girl
but for me im a trans lesbian i fully identify as a girl and im attracted to girls so i fail to see any merit what so ever in your argument my biology means nothing to me and to the respectful ppl in my life and where i live thank god my area is supportive ppl here dont look at biology they look at gender identity and tho in areas it doesnt look like this but in the us atm support for transgenders averages around 60% but negativity has a tendancy to speak louder then support and the
there may be alot of hate groups out there but you look deeper youll find they dont have very many ppl
gender identity is the only thing importaint and how ppl should always live there life a transgirl is a girl plain and simple
Good Lord! There truly is no limit to the amount of BS that you’re willing to spit out. Seriously, how old are you?!?! You should have no problem answering that question because you’ve made it clear, just like most trans people, you seem to enjoy talking about yourself and your “journey” even when nobody is asking.
“40% of trans commit suicide because ppl like you make them feel as if they cant be who they truly are”
So now not only am I wrong about medical science facts but also according to you, I am responsible for trans people killing themselves?! Right! Just keep the delusions coming. You’re on a roll.
Rather than continue with the willful ignorance, why don’t you do yourself a favor by reading and learning? Here is the complete 2014 ULCA study on trans suicide: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
Note that there are many factors that lead to suicide. One of the chief issues has to do with trans people not being accepted by their own family. Another is not being able to find romantic love. Again, there is no evil, no wrong, in people desiring to be with people of the opposite biological sex. Would you have people date transgender people just to keep trans people happy?!
I’m not against trans people being whoever they want to be. But reality steps in and says no matter what you feel you are, your biological sex is what it is and there is nothing we can do to change that. You can decide that gender is the only thing that matters to you. But you can not ask the world to stop caring much more about biological sex. You can’t ask us to do that because it is not natural to us. I didn’t choose to focus on biological sex. Nature chose for me.
“and what makes a person straight or gay is depending on there gender”
It’s as if you have your very own special dictionary. Back here in reality, what you’re claiming, is not true.
GAY: “of, relating to, or exhibiting sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one’s own SEX; homosexual” http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gay
Homosexual: “of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same SEX” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homosexual
The rest of your post is you once again talking in circles making no real nor honest point. You are not a very knowledgeable person. You don’t do enough reading, that much is clear as day. Do you honestly believe that the random BS you keep repeating is to be believed just because you state it?!?!?! Are you seriously that full of yourself?!
Supporting trans people and DATING trans people, are two VERY different things. Again, no matter how stubborn you want to be, there are NO words you can speak that are going to magically make the majority of us straight biological men want to be with a transgender woman. That is reality, no matter how much you hate it. You are NOT a bioloigical woman. You will never be a biological woman. Biological sex is a VERY big deal to most human beings. Period. You can talk in circles all day and night about gender this and gender that, meanwhile, the real world is passing you right by as you dance in fantasy land.
Hello MalibuGuy,
I sense we are running off the rails here. I do understand that some trans people are upset when they hear, “I don’t want my sister to marry one,” and other comments like that, and true or not, it feels the same to many that it is like saying “I will never ever date a person of color.”
Trans people date cis people and they date within the LGBTQ+ community. Because of bad reactions, we usually do not reveal our trans pasts. For example I will not date a TERF-person because I know she does not want to date a women of transition, but I do not owe her any personal information up front because the relationship is going nowhere anyway. “It’s doomed before they take the vow,” as Henry Higgins said. I may tell a person later that I was boy assigned at bith, but I also may decide that information will add nothing to the relationship.
Now as to the concerns about penises–not all women of transition have them. Nevertheless I am pretty sure that when it comes down to it, you would disqualify the people who were assigned boys at birth, regardless, right?. Intersex people likely would not be on your list either. Likely you only date 10s, right? Movie stars since you live out in the Bu.
Again, this attitude is well-known to women of transition and it is why we are very careful around men (and women) whom we do not know. It is why we never make any kind of initial approach (I’m speak here more in trans lesbian dating scene) and we listen carefully how you roll. You start vibing anti-LGBTQ+ and we disengage. I can almost 100% assure you that every woman of transition will vet you, and so will cis women to find out what kind of guy you are, and likely you will be selected out by us and by many cis women, too. There are plenty of fish in the sea for all of us, right?
You are safe. We aren’t interested in dating you and you aren’t interested in dating us., so stop worrying!
the only 1 spitting out bullshit is you
the only 1 who knows who i truly am what i truly like and so on is me
theres no point going on cause your far to mentally lost and mentally fked up
im a girl plain and simple nothing else its time you grow up
The angry person trying to throw personal insults is telling me to “grow up.” LOL!!!!
Once again, I really do not care what you think of yourself nor who you’re attracted to and why. That is your business and of ZERO interest to me. You keep bringing up yourself in that classic transgender narcissistic manner.
Again, the definition of transgender is a person who’s gender identity, does not match their biological sex. You are a “girl” by way of your gender identity. You are male by way of your biological sex.
You can choose what is right for you but you can NOT choose what is right for me nor anyone else. I, like most other straight men, have ZERO interest in ever dating a transgender “woman.” That is our choice and there are no words you can speak to change that.
first off no transgirl would ever date you anyways
this isnt meant as offense we do strive by orientation so no transgirl is going to be comfortable dating someone whos attracted to guys
my issue is you seem to act as if everyone dates ppl based on biologic sex and that is not even remotely true most ppl do date based on gender identity and break up when a transition puts them out of there orientation
what happens far to often in cases where a mtf is pre transitioned in a straight relationship decides to transition more often then not the girl will feel uncomfortable dating a girl
what happens next tho can be bad id highly support a friendly break up over this but more often then not the girl says that you have to leave to transition this blinds trans ppl cause they dont want to lose them or what they have love is very powerful but also very deadly and will destroy any relationship from the inside out as well as add more harm to the transgender
idc if you want to break up due to an orientation dillema but please no altimations and do it friendly and supportively
also im asuming your a guy as it says guy in your name how do you expect to date a straight guy?
also srry about my recent comment was a bit short handed i was just pissed at some other crap in life but still my biology means nothing to me but a birth defect im fully a girl in every way that matters to me
now i got a dog to torment
Virginia, you’re entitled to your opinions, just like I and everyone else is entitled to their opinions.
“I sense we are running off the rails here. I do understand that some trans people are upset when they hear, “I don’t want my sister to marry one,” and other comments like that, and true or not, it feels the same to many that it is like saying “I will never ever date a person of color.””
Sorry but that dog don’t hunt. Skin color is just skin color. A black biological woman is no different than a white biological woman, other than having different skin color and perhaps different hair thickness. Both can give birth. Both have real female primary sex organs. Both do not have a penis. Both do not have masculine biological male features such as broad shoulders, large hands, masculine jaw bone structure, etc. Trying to suggest that black skin vs white skin, is the same as biological male vs biological female, is nothing short of complete BS!
“Because of bad reactions, we usually do not reveal our trans pasts.”
We all know that. But perhaps you don’t realize that it is sick, wrong, and selfish to not disclose your biological sex. It’s not your “trans past.” It’s your real past, present, and future that your biological sex is male. Just because you’ve put it into the back of your mind, does not mean the world has done the same (with regards to dating). When it comes to dating, the person considering dating you has the right to know your biological sex. You may not agree with that but the amount of pain that it can bring to you and the wasted time; should be more than enough to give you something to think about. You do not get to decide what is and is not okay for other people. You fear telling dates because you already know how most people feel about it. Dating is the one thing that people have the right to choose what they want and don’t want and have no responsibility to give you a reason. People should not start dating trans people just because it will make trans people feel better about themselves. Dating is not just about you and what you want for yourself. Dating is about both people giving themselves to each other in order to make the other person happy/loved.
“I may tell a person later that I was boy assigned at bith, but I also may decide that information will add nothing to the relationship.”
That tells me all I need to know to know that you are a selfish, dihonest person who cares more about what you want than respecting other people. Period! Perhaps you are (or not) one of the very few trans women that “pass” very well. If you actually are (most do not even though they lie to themselves about it), and you choose to date someone and not tell them, you are doing them very wrong.
Again, being a trans woman, means that you are a biological male that has a female gender identity. You are not a biological woman. If you were, then you would not be trans anything. Your doctor needs to know your biological sex. And ANYONE who you get involved with for the purpose of a romantic relationship and or sexual contact of any kind has the right to know the true biological sex of the other person. Again, you do NOT get to decide what is okay for other people. The fact that you actually think that you do, makes me sick to my stomach! Just shady as hell! Sick and wrong!
It just amazes me just how selfish trans people can be. I’m not talking about meeting new friends. I’m not talking about bathroom laws and employment. I’m talking about sexual contact. I’m talking about romantic relationships. If you look, dress and behave like a biological woman, I’m going to assume that you are a biological woman because out of 350 MILLION people in the U.S., less than 1 million of them are trans and just over half of that less than 1 million, are trans women. I date biological women because I’m naturally attracted to them. When I meet a woman, I assume that she has a vagina and can probably give birth if we were to fall in love, get married and decide to have children. Those are things that are not possible with a trans woman. Less than 1/3 of trans people, undergo SRS. That means most trans people have their biological sex organs. And out of the few trans women that do have SRS done, a “neovagina” is NOT a real vagina. It is a simulation of the real thing. It can not self-lubricate itself. It can not facilitate pregnancy. It’s like having a fake sink attached to a wall but no pipes in the wall so no water comes out or goes down. Yet somewhere in that brain of yours, you actually think it’s okay to assume that people won’t want the real thing and will be okay with what you are if or when they find out.
“Now as to the concerns about penises–not all women of transition have them. Nevertheless I am pretty sure that when it comes down to it, you would disqualify the people who were assigned boys at birth, regardless, right?. Intersex people likely would not be on your list either. Likely you only date 10s, right? Movie stars since you live out in the Bu.”
As I stated above, the stats indicate that less than 1/3 of trans people ever undergo SRS (sex reassignment surgery). Most trans people have their biological sex organs. You don’t need to be pretty sure. You should already know that it is 100% fact that me like many, many guys, would not ever be willing to consider dating/having sex with a trans woman because they are not biological women.
LOL!! What does dating “10’s” have to do with not having a desire to date a trans woman? Since you brought it up; I would rather date/sleep with (on that 1 thru 10 beauty scale you brought up) a 1 or 2 biological woman rather than a trans woman who looks like a “10.” You really just don’t seem to understand what a deal breaker the whole biological sex thing is. Again, you’ve put your biological sex deep within the back of your mind but I and most people have not and will not because it is are natural desires that make us lust over and want to be with members of the opposite biological sex.
“Again, this attitude is well-known to women of transition”
Yet another transgender person who does not appear to be fully in touch with reality. “Woman of transition.” Really?!?! You’re a transgender woman. You don’t just have a “trans past.” You are a trans person right here, right now and you always will be. You can twist words and be as shady as you want but that is NOT going to change reality. No amount of HRT drugs, no amount of SRS and no amount of LGBTQ propaganda, is ever going to transform you from being a trans person into not being a trans person. Your biological sex is never going to change. You are never going to talk the world into changing the desires of their hearts for the sake of making you feel more like a biological woman by being with you.
“. I can almost 100% assure you that every woman of transition will vet you, and so will cis women to find out what kind of guy you are, and likely you will be selected out by us and by many cis women, too. There are plenty of fish in the sea for all of us, right?”
“You are safe. We aren’t interested in dating you and you aren’t interested in dating us., so stop worrying!”
LOL!!!! There is nothing that you can tell me/teach me about my dating life. FYI’ like I’ve already stated; I’ve been hit on by 2 different trans women here in the Los Angeles area. I have a girlfriend and even if I didn’t, there will never be a day when I have any interest in knowingly dating someone who is the same biological sex as me. There is nothing “anti-LGBTQ” about wanting to only date biological women. Dating is NOT a civil right. Nobody owes anyone, trans or not, the chance to date them. Those facts hurt your feelings. I get it. But just because you don’t like something, does not mean that any BS label you choose to attach to it, equals reality.
You assume that not wanting to date trans people equals hate. You don’t seem to understand that not wanting to date trans people is not about hating you; it’s about wanting, lusting over, desiring biological women THAT much!
If I meet a woman who happens to be a lesbian and therefore won’t even consider going out on a date with; does it make sense to you, to label her a hate-filled person?!?!?! She is onyl interested in people who are the same biological sex as she is. That IS the definition of being a lesbian. That’s what turns her on. She doesn’t want dick. She doesn’t like dick. She doesn’t get turned on by the thought of dick. I don’t have a vagina. So I’m out of luck with her. Thats how nature works. The rules don’t change for trans people, no matter how much they demand it.
Hello MalibuGuy,
You write quite a lot but I feel I am looking into a cement mixer churningthe same stuff over and over.
Lets add some new information, ok? Here are some pictures of trans youth and they don’t fit your stereotypes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/24/inside-out-portraits-cross-gender-children_n_7318026.html
Thoughts?
there are cis girls who also cant have kids a transgirl is no different
1’s ability to have kids does not change who they are a transgirl is a girl in every way that really matters to them
Hello MalibuGuy:
Thank you for taking the time to answer my original comment to you.
I would suggest you read the article (above) that you are commenting on the biology of trans people.
Your essentialist view of trans people is out of date. Modern clinical studies and peer reviewing published finding are taking us in a very different direction from the one that you describe. Mostly you are describing people who have not been diagnosed and treated when they are young. The garish stereotypes you describe are people who did not get the right endocrine treatment early enough.
Today trans youth are ever more being raised in the gender of affirmation. They are getting puberty blockers when they enter middle school which delay the effects of the irreversible and disfiguring puberties you so aptly describe. This allows time for counseling to make sure the transition is right. This is a decision made by the person, the parents, and medical professionals who treat trans youth. The blockers are totally reversible and if the person changes their mind about transition, they can simply stop taking them.
In high school, with further counseling and living in role, cross-hormone therapy might be considered. A trans girl will develop wide hips like any female and will develop breasts like any typical girl. She fill not develop the jaw line to which you refer nor will she have male hair patterns. Her voice will not deepen. She will not grow overly tall not have a male frame–all the things you find disgusting. Believe me, she finds these things disgusting, too, and it is why she is willing to take the estrogen.
For trans boys the treatment is similar, except going in the opposite direction. A trans boy will develop all those features you find unattractive–tall, well-built, muscular, facial hair, deep voice, muscle mass . . . the whole smash.
This is the future of trans. What you are describe are the remnants of an age when people were ignorant of trans issues. With continued medical progress, in the next decade or two using techniques that are currently being perfected, trans people will be able to bear their own biological children and the last of your concern will be addressed.
Trans boys will be raised as boys, go through male puberty, be able to father children and live as men.
Trans girls will be raised as girls, go through female puberty, be able to bear children and live as women.
It may be a Brave New World with much of it already here, but shouting about it will not change the fact the medicine is addressing this population in a compassionate and proactive way.
“first off no transgirl would ever date you anyways
this isnt meant as offense we do strive by orientation so no transgirl is going to be comfortable dating someone whos attracted to guys”
Was that paragraph supposed to make sense or any type of new point?!
“my issue is you seem to act as if everyone dates ppl based on biologic sex and that is not even remotely true most ppl do date based on gender identity”
I’m not acting like anything. You keep repeating yourself as if saying the same BS over and over will somehow make it become true. It won’t. Why don’t you provide links from credible non-pro-trans sources that support your claims??? You won’t do so because you can’t. You can’t because there are none.
Most people still do not understand that gender and biological sex are not the same things. Most people say gender but what they actually mean is biological sex. When it comes to primary sex organs, they have everything to do with biological sex and nothing to do with gender identity. If you’re going to try and claim that most people don’t care about what primary sex organs their potential partner has, then you are even more full of BS than I already knew about.
When it comes to dating apps, biological sex and sexual orientation, are the primary/first categories that people choose from. When it comes to online porn, biological sex is the primary/first categories that people choose from. Millions of people around the world consume porn every day. They choose what turns them on. Most sites have a “tranny” category because only some people are interested in that. They have no categories based on gender identity. If the BS you keep claiming were true, both porn sites and dating apps/sites, would not categorize as they do.
“idc if you want to break up due to an orientation dillema but please no altimations and do it friendly and supportively”
That and the sentences right before it, make no sense to me. I have no idea what you’re trying to communicate but I’m sure that whatever you’re trying to say, is just something else that I do not agree with.
“also im asuming your a guy as it says guy in your name how do you expect to date a straight guy?”
Again, what the hell are you talking about?!?! I’m not gay. I don’t date guys. I onyl date biological women.
“my biology means nothing to me but a birth defect im fully a girl in every way that matters to me”
That’s your right to think/feel that way. But again, you do not have the right to tell anyone else what should matter to them when it comes to their romantic interests in their lives. You don’t want to think about your biological sex. That does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. You can’t force anyone to ignore your biological sex and just focus on your gender identity.
Nature designed the majority of human beings to lust over, feel attracted to, desire to have sex with, people of the opposite biological sex. It is natural. Sexual attraction is not just something that makes us feel good. The primary reason for sex is to reproduce. Gender identity doesn’t create new life. Biological sex does.
the fact you cant comprehend what i typed says to me that you cant properly read ill admit i dont type well but i type well enough for it to be read
your just a lost cause who fails to understand reality stuck inside your narrow minded skull
dont reply unless your willing to come out of your narrow minded self
i am a girl in every way that matters that is the truth but clearly you dont have the mental capacity to understand that
Virgina, if you want to “thank” me for taking the time to respond to your reply, then why not do so by actually addressing my entire post?! You replied with a long post, harping on just one single issue and ignored everything else. I can guess why you did that.
“Your essentialist view of trans people is out of date.”
Once again, you are mistaken. There is nothing out of date about the fact that a transgender woman, is a biological male. That is the reason why they are transgender. That is the definition of transgender. If you are trans, you will always be trans. Your words will not change that fact. Today, most trans women, do not pass very well at all. Whether it is the voice or the looks, most of us can tell that someone is trans. We just don’t say so because there is no need to. I see a lot of trans people here in the Los Angeles area. I treat them no different than I treat biological women/men. The only difference in treatment is when it comes to dating. Again, I, like many other straight men, do not have an interest in dating trans women. No amount of words spoken, will ever change that for me and many people like me.
There is nothing out of date about the fact that less than 1/3 of trans people ever undergo SRS. Again, that means most trans women have a penis duct taped under that dress. There is nothing out of date about the fact that most of us straight men have NO desire to have a sexual relationship with someone who has a penis. The lack of interest in that will NEVER change no matter how much you wish it would become no big deal. ItIS a big deal! A very big deal and NO is not shallow. Sex organs were created for reproducing and for sexual pleasure. Human beings love sex. Yet today we live in a world where selfish trans people, are trying to demand that society should just get over their sex organs and be with them despite not having,/being what they desire. Complete BS!
“Modern clinical studies and peer reviewing published finding are taking us in a very different direction from the one that you describe. ”
What you don’t seem to comprehend is that I know far more about the science than you do. You don’t realize just how foolish you sound because you don’t know what I know.
Almost 90-years ago, the first transgender sex organ transplant was attempted. Lili Elbe, a trans woman, wanted to be able to give birth. Her 2nd organ transplant attempt killed her in 1931. Since then, almost 90-years later, the medical sciences community has still not been able to successfully transplant sex organs.
Last year the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio, tried and failed at the first U.S. uterus transplant into a real biological woman. In other words, the medical science community is still trying to figure out how to successfully transplant sex organs into biological women. Doing so with biological women vs transgender women is very different. A trans woman does not have any of the other organs necessary. That means a transgender woman would need to undergo many seriously complicated surgeries in order to give them the ability to give birth like a biological woman. Medical science is not 10-years away from that as you suggest.
“Mostly you are describing people who have not been diagnosed and treated when they are young.”
No! I’m describing the majority of the less than 1 million trans people we have here in the U.S. You are also incorrect in assuming that most trans kids are starting HRT very early. What you are doing is claiming that kids are doing today, what you wish you could have done as a kid. The data does not support your claims. Most trans people are still beginning HRT after puberty. Some are starting after age 18 because their parents would not allow them to do so earlier so they end up waiting until it is their choice.
Regardless of what a trans person looks like (how well the “pass”), the fact remains that they are NOT the biological sex that they present themselves to be. You see to believe that as long as trans people look like the sex they want to be, then they are the same thing as being that sex. That is simply not reality. If you pass well, you can navigate through life without anyone other than your doctor knows the truth about your biological sex. However, again, when it comes to sexual relationships, that truth should know and or will become known at some point. And that truth will still matter to the majority (as in most but not 100%) of people anywhere in the world.
“The garish stereotypes you describe are people who did not get the right endocrine treatment early enough.”
Most trans people have not and still do not start HRT before puberty. Furthermore, secondary sex characteristics begin to take shape, just a few years after birth. When you see a 5 to 10-year old girl, you can see that she looks like a girl. Why do you suppose that is?!?! Also, HRT started at any age, will not give a trans girl, female sex organs. she will still have male sex organs.
“A trans girl will develop wide hips like any female and will develop breasts like any typical girl. She fill not develop the jaw line to which you refer nor will she have male hair patterns.”
That is simply not a statement of fact. There is NO way to know exactly how HRT will impact any human being at any given age. HRT works better for some and not as well for others.
“A trans boy will develop all those features you find unattractive–tall, well-built, muscular, facial hair, deep voice, muscle mass . . . the whole smash.”
Same comment I just made above. And again, a trans boy, will not have a penis and testicles. So NO, they will not have “the whole smash.” They will still be biologically female. do you have any idea what SRS is like for a trans man??? It’s even worse than what SRS does for a trans woman. A trans man who undergoes SRS is given a fake penis which is basically a dildo wrapped in real skin. The type that is meant to simulate an erection, does so by way of a manual air pump within the fake testicles. Just insanely pitiful.
“This is the future of trans. What you are describe are the remnants of an age when people were ignorant of trans issues.”
Your words are as false as you are. You’re talking in circles, making broad generalized statements. The future of trans is not trans people being the biological sex they wish they had been born as. The future of trans is not society waking up one day and deciding that there is no difference between dating a trans woman and dating a biological woman.
“Trans boys will be raised as boys, go through male puberty, be able to father children and live as men.”
“Trans girls will be raised as girls, go through female puberty, be able to bear children and live as women.”
That may or may not be possible someday in the future as in 30, 50 or more years from now. That is not happening within 10-years as you suggested. Here, in reality, today, trans women can not give birth because they do not any of the sex organs required. Trans men can not seed birth because they can not produce sperm. That is reality today and tomorrow. But you are more than welcome to hold on to the idea that it’s all just around the corner, just like transgender Lili Elbe believed 90-years ago.
“It may be a Brave New World with much of it already here, but shouting about it will not change the fact the medicine is addressing this population in a compassionate and proactive way.”
Do you really not comprehend what my argument here has been about?!?! The definition of transgender is today, what it was yesterday. No matter what medical science has been able to do, the fact about biological sex, remain today just as they were yesterday. Natural vs simulated. Why on earth would I or anyone, want to choose simulated over natural when natural is everywhere as in 98% of the human population?!
Hello Malibu Guy,
Maybe you aren’t reading the links, but many others are reading the, and in the absence of any rebuttal, they will not support your assertions.
Virginia, you’re making it more and more clear that you are just another trans person full of BS. I’ve learned that most trans people can be very dishonest and downright shady.
I did not bother clicking on your link. Why should I? To see examples of trans people that don’t look trans?!?! You keep forgetting what the central point is within my argument: 1) A trans woman is not and will not ever be a biological woman. 2) Most of us are not interested in dating/having sexual contact with trans people because we are only attracted to people who are the opposite biological sex. I don’t care what bathroom trans people use. I don’t care where they live and work. Trans people, as far as I’m concerned, can do whatever they choose to do with themselves. I’m just not interested in ever having a sexual relationship with a trans woman. I love pussy! I love sex! I love biological women. I’m in my mid-20s and I plan to get married and have biological children. What I want in a woman, a transgender woman could never give me.
this comment proves to me you know absolutly nothing about trans ppl in any way shape or form and refuse to accept reality and rather sit in your black and white world and think every has to be just like you
you need to grow up theres no place in a civilised society for bigotry such as yourself
i know what i am i know who i am you do not nor do you have any grounds to say
i am a girl and thats the end this conversation is done you are nothing but another uneducated bigot who refuces to see reality
Kirstin, you’re full of BS. There really is no better way to say it. I’ve posted links and spoken about medical science facts. You have no argument so you respond with nothing but weak personal attacks. You have the articulation of a 13-year old child. Combined with your lack of honesty, equals nothing more than bitter words by a bitter person.
Again, you are welcome to have whatever personal opinion of yourself as you’d like. However, I and the rest of the world, are not required to subscribe to the BS you keep spitting out. You are a biological male. No amount of BS you keep spitting out is going to ever be able to change that medical science fact. You are not a biological woman and that is why you are transgender. There is a huge difference no matter how many times you claim there is not.
You have XY sex chromosomes just like me and almost all other biological males. You have a male prostate. You were born with male primary organs just like me and almost all other biological males. You have the ability to produce sperm but not the ability to give birth, just like me and almost all other biological males.
The thoughts you have in your brain, do not negate the physical body you were born with. Reality is not what you claim it to be. But hey, you’re more than welcome to keep living on fantasy island. It’s your life.
you posted links full of nothing but bs you have no argument you have no say in who or what i am cause your not me i am a girl plain and simple
your nothing more then a worthless bigot to say otherwise your a nobody its time you grow up and out of your retarded fantasy world
theres no point arguing your minds to narrow to accept reality
https://pastebin.com/7HFYenfW
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4657830/transgender-women-born-boys-babies-NHS-doctors.html
http://www.amsa.org/advocacy/action-committees/gender-sexuality/transgender-health/
i can go on all day about links teaching about transgender but your mind is clearly to narrow to read anything truthful
i am a girl and thats all that matters you have no place to say otherwise so this convo ios done you are nothing but another brainless bigot grow up or gtf out i know alot more then youll ever dream about knowing
Hello kirstin TransGirl
There have been some positives and I try to stay focused on that.
#1. The article above speaks for itself and it is published in a forum affiliated with a prestigious university.
#2. Awareness of trans issues is increased and it is nothing to fear.
#3. Other links and resources are referenced and the word gets out and spreads.
#4. Some people may be uncomfortable because trans people exist, but it does not diminish the first three points.
Medical science is making advances and the biological roots of trans-ness are being understood and that is accelerating. Theories of a half century ago that being trans is a mental illness have been all bit discarded, just like being gay used to be considered a mental illness in need of a “cure.”
I am heartened. I transitioned in my 20s, the whole smash, during the 1970s and we have come very far very fast. Surgical techniques and HRT and other therapies have made transition better and easier. That the Dutch protocol is being widely used is also heartening for it spares trans youth from having to go through two puberties. Moreover the psychological outcomes are as good as, if not better, than for the control group for trans youth who are raised in their gender of affirmation.
I have been in contact with some leading edge medical technology groups who have perfected ways of allowing both cis and trans women to give birth to their own biological children for those who wish it. At this stage in my life, my 70s, I would not be a candidate nor would I wish to be, but it is fascinating to see how far medical technology has progressed.
A new generation is coming up who are not either shocked nor surprised that trans people exist. We have always existed and there have always been accounts about us: Christine Jorgensen in the 1950s. April Ashley in the 1960s, Renee Richards in the 1970s. This is nothing new. There are even accounts of trans people in Rome in the 2nd century. What is new is that people are understand it better. And there is earlier intervention. The sensationalist and negative attitudes these three pioneers, and others such as Sandy Stone or Jan Morris faced, have shifted. It is getting better and articles like the one above help people understand that there is nothing to fear and that some people are born this way and it’s okay.
The gender genie is out of the bottle and it is unlikely it will ever get stuffed back in.
youve said what ive been saying for a while its def not new just more accepted its facing its last fight tbh but the last fight is always the biggest in civil rights cases
Hello MalibuGuy,
So she’s a “man?” And where did you do to medical school, doctor? When did you give her the physical exam? Only a quack would a diagnosis without examining the patient.
Virginia, you may not realize it but most people are a lot smarter than you give them credit for as you try to manipulate the facts as if nobody can see right through the games that you’re playing.
“Maybe you aren’t reading the links, but many others are reading the, and in the absence of any rebuttal, they will not support your assertions.”
You said that you posted links to some trans girls that don’t look trans. How exactly does that not support the points that I made??? I stated that a transgender woman is a biological male. That is what makes her transgender. It is the definition of transgender. I also stated that most trans people, do not pass very well. You can go to YouTube and see some of the most “passable” trans women and yet they still have voices that sound like biological males.
I also stated that you are incorrect that within 10-years from now, trans women will be able to give birth. I also stated that most straight biological men such as myself, have no desire to date or have sexual contact with any trans women.
Again, how do your links negate anything that I’ve stated? It is you who ignored everything I wrote and focused in on a single sentence and then went on to make assumptions about that single sentence.
I would never date a trans woman because I am only interested in being with a biological woman. Because of people like you, I most likely will never consider even being friends with a transgender woman because almost all of my experiences (communication) both on and offline with trans women, has resulted in shady BS and straight up dishonesty. I have no interest in having anything to do with dishonest people.
and everybody is alot smarter then you
your just to narrow minded to see reality my genitalia does not define who i am
i am a girl and no mentally retarded bigot such as yourself is going to tell me otherwise i know who i am you do not so grow the fk up
“and everybody is alot smarter then you
your just to narrow minded to see reality my genitalia does not define who i am
i am a girl and no mentally retarded bigot such as yourself is going to tell me otherwise i know who i am you do not so grow the fk up”
LOL!!!! Again, you really might want to consider using a spelling and grammar checker. While stating how smart everyone is compared to me, you incorrectly used “then” instead of “than.” And then you incorrectly used “your” instead of “you’re.”
You’re a “girl” by way of your gender identity. You are male by way of your biological sex. Again, gender is WHO you are and your biological sex is WHAT you are. But hey, you’re more than welcome to keep living on fantasy island while the rest of live here in reality.
Since you’re so wise and I’m so clueless, why don’t you explain to the class, what is the definition of a transgender woman??? What makes you trans rather than non-trans???
You, Virginia, and other trans “women” love to claim that the world is “not so black and white.” You complain about labels and what you think is wrong with what you consider to be outdated thinking. The irony in all of that is that it is you trans women that spend your time trying to become as close to as possible, an old world label.
You try to behave like biological women in every way you are able to. You say society is wrong and needs to change yet all you do is mimic every aspect of the traditional label that belongs to biological women. You don’t wear makeup and wear dresses because it’s in your DNA. You do so because it’s what you see biological women doing. You walk into a women’s bathroom and sit on a dirty toilet seat to pee with your penis rather than peeing with your penis standing up because biological women don’t stand to pee.
Everything you do is to mimic biological women. In other words, you have surrendered your life to black and white labels and you don’t even realize it. Worst of all, the labels you apply to yourself, are labels that you will never fully be able to own because, at the end of the day, you are not a biological female.
As an M2F transwoman, I respond to advertising and the way that I see people dressing and behaving in the world as if I am a woman. I’ve had to learn how to live as a man, but it’s far easier to do things as a woman. And the way the world works is that the gender that you belong to is the one that you will pick up the cues for.
I wear makeup because I like to look pretty, and I like to look pretty because societies expectations of women is that they will look pretty. I buy nice clothes because I like the look and feel of them, and how I feel while I’m wearing them. Pretty much the same answer as you’d get from a cis-woman.
I’ve struggled with the fact that I will never be able to have children, the same as many other women have struggled in the same way. This is because this is WHO I am. I am a woman. I don’t do things to mimic people that were Assigned Female At Birth, I do things because I am a woman, despite being Assigned Male At Birth.
The reason that I’m transgender is because someone looked at a piece of my anatomy when I was born and Assigned me as Male on my birth certificate.
I also note that you’ve been responding to kirstin TransGirl, while ignoring the questions that I’ve posed to you. Is this because you’re big on arguing about what’s wrong with other peoples posts, but not so big on answering the difficult questions?
“I don’t do things to mimic people that were Assigned Female At Birth, I do things because I am a woman, despite being Assigned Male At Birth.”
Most people (98%) of us, were not just “assigned” male or female at birth. We are biologically male or female at birth and will remain so for our entire lives. You can’t negate something simply by using specific words to describe it. That is part of the transgender narrative that is so annoyingly pitiful.
“The reason that I’m transgender is because someone looked at a piece of my anatomy when I was born and Assigned me as Male on my birth certificate.”
Please! Enough with the transgender PR and PC BS! Nobody knows the reason why you are trans. But what it means to be trans, by definition, is that you are a biological male with a female gender identity within your mind. That is reality and remains so even after you try to twist and minimize the fact.
“I also note that you’ve been responding to kirstin TransGirl, while ignoring the questions that I’ve posed to you”
Oh, is that right?! What questions have you asked me? Every reply to me, I have responded to. I have not and do not plan on reading every last comment made here. I read some of them and responded to some of them. From there it has been me responding to people who have hit reply to my comments.
“Is this because you’re big on arguing about what’s wrong with other peoples posts, but not so big on answering the difficult questions?”
LOL!! What are you talking about? What questions have you addressed to me???
Almost forgot – regarding doing things to mimic biological women: A transgender woman who has a penis, walks into a women’s bathroom to pee. Public bathrooms are designed for biological sex more so than for gender. That is why men’s bathrooms have urinals and women’s bathrooms do not. We all know that if you have a penis, the cleanest and fastest way to pee is to do so standing up. To sit on a public toilet to pee, as an owner of a penis, is all about the phycology of doing things the way biological women do them. Really, you can try to spin and twist it all day long but we both know what the truth is.
@MalibuGuy part 1 & 2 & remember
Part II
As for you argument that we want people to focus on gender to the exclusion of sex. This is untrue. We want all social aspects of society to focus on Gender and not Sex, and only the medically necessary things to focus on Sex, e.g. things that care about whether you have an y chromosome rather than a x, or some genetic abnomality that means that you have both. Especially given that advances in medical science will soon mean that transwomen could be given a female reproductive system and Transmen a male reproductive system. The reason for this is that things like prostate cancer, testicular cancer, cervical cancer, etc. can affect anyone with those particular features, and while currently it’s not been possible to clone and implant one for anyone that didn’t already have one, that doesn’t mean it’s going to be true forever.
As for transphobia and not dating trans-people. The argument is usually you’re transphobic if you state that you are not attracted to trans-people, as usually attraction comes before dating, and requires you know something about a person that you couldn’t possibly know. Having a preference for a certain body type, or genitals that most trans people don’t meet, is generally considered fine though. Out of interest, do you also care about whether a woman that you’re thinking about dating can have kids or not?
Re: Marriage – I live in the UK, and I’ve not seen anything about having to notify your partner that you are transgender if you’ve received a gender recognition certificate (i.e. you are transgender in the eyes of the law). However with all such things, if you haven’t received one of those then you will be legally married/enter a civil partnership (or barred from civil partnership) based on your legal gender. In existing marriages, being Transgender is a voidable condition assuming that you were not transgender when the marriage started. And prior to 2014, you couldn’t get a recognition certificate without divorcing.
I disagree with your assertion that most people are attracted to other people based on their sex, because unless they are looking at someone that’s naked, they have no way to determine what that is. Instead, everyone – including you uses a system of attractors and detractors that take into account things like how big their forehead is, how square their chin is, how they walk, what secondary sexual characteristics they’ve got, how they dress, even what haircut they have. Or are you telling me that you actually fall in love with vaginas?
And, no it’s called sexuality because it’s the sort of person you want to have sex with, rather than because of their genitals. The fact that the two match up nearly 99% of the time is why your getting confused, gay men are attracted to people that look like men, and lesbians are attracted to people that look like women. Whether that persons specific genitals is an issue is something that comes later, and in our current society is often a turn-off once they’re known (and in the case of men, can lead to unwarranted violence). But here’s another thing that’s also fairly specific to men (and more than one older trans person has told me about having this experience), when they’re originally told that the person is trans, they say that they understand and continue to date the person until they get them into bed, at which point they’re shocked and upset to find out something they were told before. But equally it’s also men that won’t leave women alone even if they’re a lesbian, saying things like how do you know if you’ve never had a man? Given that you don’t hear about the same dogged determination as a common thing from straight women coming onto gay men (or even just uninterested men), I wonder what’s to blame on that one?
It’s also interesting that you list a whole host of things that mean that sex sells – when it’s actually not whether the person has specific genitals, but whether they have specific characteristics that are strongly associated with members of a certain gender. Only one of those things in your list cares about what genitals someone has – porn, and guess what, statistics would suggest that actually straight men like transpeople sexually ( http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/27/transgender-porn-quickly-growing-in-popularity.html http://www.alternet.org/sex-amp-relationships/why-trans-porn-hugely-popular-among-hetero-men#14999558126822&action=expand_widget&id=0&data= )
Finally, as for mimicking womens behaviour in the toilet. I’ve been sitting down to pee for longer than I’ve known what transgender is and means, let alone accepting that I am transgender. This is because I’ve got a very small penis (<1" flaccid) that sprays if I don't fiddle around with it at a urinal, so for the most part, unless I'm in a hurry (i.e. the seats in the loo aren't sanitary or someone else is using it) and willing to get pee on my trousers (or legs if I'm wearing shorts), it's actually quicker and more hygienic for me to sit down to pee.
Part 1:
“As for you argument that we want people to focus on gender to the exclusion of sex. This is untrue.”
Right here in these comments, you can see at least one example that goes against what you’re claiming. Take a look at the posts to me, by Kirstin. Kirstin has made it very clear, over and over, that she thinks most people already focus more on gender rather than sex.
“We want all social aspects of society to focus on Gender and not Sex, and only the medically necessary things to focus on Sex, e.g. things that care about whether you have an y chromosome rather than a x, or some genetic abnomality that means that you have both.”
That is NEVER going to happen for all of the reasons that I’ve already explained several times. Also, notice how you left out key elements that come to mind for most people? You intentionally didn’t mention genitals even though you know good and well that is a HUGE part of why most straight cisgender people have no interest in being involved sexually/romantically with trans people. That is what I call just more shady trans behavior on your part. Most people do not even know what XY and XX sex chromosomes are. They only know the end results of chromosomes and that end result which you neglected to mention, happens to be all that most people care about.
In stating what you want people to focus on and care about, did you even consider the reality that you don’t have the right to demand what other people care about?! You don’t get to dictate what people feel is important to them. All you can do is choose for yourself.
Again, I’ve already been over all of this. We as human beings are very sexual creatures. We love sex. We love having sex. We love thinking about sex. We love getting ready to have sex. It is all in our nature to love sex. Nature designed us to love sex and the PRIMARY reason nature designed us to love sex is so that we would reproduce. Just think about that for a minute. If you were God/Mother Nature and you wanted your creations to multiply, what better way to ensure they that do other than to make sex very pleasurable, exciting and easy enough?!?! The point is that almost everything that we do in life, has a connection to having sex and all that is associated with sex. Again, that is why they say sex sells and why it dominates music, film, and TV still today.
What would have happened if nature designed us to focus on gender rather than biological sex?! Right now, here in reality and within anytime in the past history of the world, it is NOT possible for a transgender woman to be with a biological male and create and give birth. That is why nature did not design us to lust for gender over biological sex.
“Especially given that advances in medical science will soon mean that transwomen could be given a female reproductive system and Transmen a male reproductive system.”
We’ve already been over all that here. Okay, you hold onto that hope. Good luck with that. Today, here, in reality, no such thing is possible. We are still trying to successfully allow biological women to have sex organs transplanted into them so that they can have a child. Here in the U.S. the Cleveland Clinic tried last year and failed. You see, you may want to be the priority but you are not. The priority within the medical sciences community is to help biological women with issues, become able to give birth with donated organs and later on, created organs. We are not there yet. We will not be there in 10-years from yet some of you trans people believe that in 10-years from now, transwomen will be able to have all of the needed sex organs, transplanted into them. Again, good luck with that.
“The reason for this is that things like prostate cancer, testicular cancer, cervical cancer, etc. can affect anyone with those particular features, and while currently it’s not been possible to clone and implant one for anyone that didn’t already have one, that doesn’t mean it’s going to be true forever. ”
This is me again not understanding whatever it is you think that you’re trying to say. Trans women have a male prostate. The risk in removing it along with SRS, are far too great to make it a wise choice to remove it. Risk your life and future health to remove something inside of you because the thought of it reminds you of your biological sex?! Nutty and truly SAD!!!!! The human body is NOT a damn lego set. You can’t just mix and match pieces with no complications and risks. Reality just doesn’t work that way. Have you not done your research on SRS? Why do you think MOST trans people do NOT choose to undergo SRS??? SRS can and does for many, lead to all kinds of nasty conclusions. And that is just one sex organ that is mostly external. Some transwomen who undergo SRS to create a “neovagina” end up losing ALL sex drive for LIFE! Google it! Most have to deal with infections and bad odors caused by said infections. A neovagina is just a hole that is meant to simulate a real vagina. It is NOT a vagina. It can not self-lubricate like a real vagina does when aroused. Again, that is just one external sex organ that is meant just to simulate the real thing and still it is far from perfect with lots of problems.
“As for transphobia and not dating trans-people. The argument is usually you’re transphobic if you state that you are not attracted to trans-people, as usually attraction comes before dating, and requires you know something about a person that you couldn’t possibly know. Having a preference for a certain body type, or genitals that most trans people don’t meet, is generally considered fine though.”
What you might want to know is that most of us really do NOT care whether or not the LGBTQ community considers us to be transphobic with regards to dating. If you’re having that argument then you’re having it alone because really, most of us really do not care. You may not agree with it but to most of us, it is no different than us not wanting to be with a cisgender gay guy. I have the EXACT same feelings/reaction to the idea of being with a trans woman as I do about being with a cisgender male gay or straight. Why it’s all the same is because again, biological sex is what comes first when it comes to what we are attracted to. A transwoman, a straight cisgender male and a gay cisgender male, are ALL biologically MALE! Boobs, hair, makeup and womens clothes, may make some trans women look like biological females but it does not make them biological females.
“Out of interest, do you also care about whether a woman that you’re thinking about dating can have kids or not?”
Most guys who want to have kids, of course, care about that. Regardless, being able to have kids is not the only thing that matters to most of us. The REASON WHY someone can or can not have kids is also what matters a great deal.
“Re: Marriage – I live in the UK, and I’ve not seen anything about having to notify your partner that you are transgender if you’ve received a gender recognition certificate”
Google is your friend. Perhaps you should do more research rather than so much talking. Furthermore, I’m going to guess that just like other trans people who have posted here, that you have no shame in hiding your biological sex (if you are able to). That to me is just more trans shady BS! You don’t get to decide what is okay for someone else. It is selfish to try and assume that you know what is best for anyone else just because you want what you want. You know good and well that most people care about biological sex and if you choose to hide that from any potential date, then you are just sick and very wrong! Period!
As far as the law in the UK:
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3b5x4n/should-trans-people-have-to-disclose-their-birth-gender-before-sex
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/trans-people-could-face-rape-charges-if-they-don-t-declare-sexual-history-warns-trans-activist-a7076546.html
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3b5x4n/should-trans-people-have-to-disclose-their-birth-gender-before-sex
“I disagree with your assertion that most people are attracted to other people based on their sex, because unless they are looking at someone that’s naked, they have no way to determine what that is.”
I’ve already talked way too much about sexual attraction and so my prior comments already address this comment of yours. Furthermore, you are talking about false pretense. Some women are attracted to men with a lot of money. If a woman meets a guy that she thinks is wealthy and begins dating him, lusting over him, etc., and then finds out that it was all a lie and that the guy is really broke, that is a false pretense. You, like many other trans people, sadly, have this idea that as long as you can fool people into believing something then it might as well be as good as true. That shady BS works in other areas of life but not in intimate situations such as romance/sex. Just because a guy (who could even be me) looks at a trans woman, doesn’t know that she’s trans and therefore thinks that she is really hot; is NOT a case for people being attracted to gender rather than sex. Do you really not see that??? It’s so sad how far off into the deep end trans people can be in their logic. Just sad as hell!
“Instead, everyone – including you uses a system of attractors and detractors that take into account things like how big their forehead is, how square their chin is, how they walk, what secondary sexual characteristics they’ve got, how they dress, even what haircut they have. Or are you telling me that you actually fall in love with vaginas?”
LOL!!!! There is no need for me to respond to any of that but here I am doing so anyway. You really aren’t paying attention and or you just have a hard time with comprehension. When I see a woman, I assume she is a biological female (more than 99.9% of all women in the U.S. are not trans). I assume she is a biological female UNLESS something were to catch my eye (or ears) and send up a red flag. So, no, I’m not consciously thinking about the various features of her face and body, trying to analyze them. YOU as a trans person, are busy thinking about those things, wondering how well you pass. We don’t have the same fears and thoughts that trans people have.
You already know that people don’t fall in love with a vagina. We fall in love with a person. Falling in love and having the desire to have sex with someone, do not and often don’t go hand in hand. We can meet someone and want to have sex with them without even knowing them. That is part of sexual desire. Again, a transwoman “passing” very well and getting a random guy to want to sleep with her, does NOT equal “oh see that guy can be attracted to gender.” The guy was FOOLED!!!!!! Try letting the guy know right away that the hot woman he is looking at, is really not a biological female and then see how that plays out. Yes, some guys would still be down to hook up or maybe even date that transgender woman, but my same point is that MOST of us would not be willing to hook up or date someone we knew was trans, NO MATTER how good they looked and like a biological woman.
“And, no it’s called sexuality because it’s the sort of person you want to have sex with, rather than because of their genitals. The fact that the two match up nearly 99% of the time is why your getting confused, gay men are attracted to people that look like men, and lesbians are attracted to people that look like women. ”
Sex·u·al·i·ty:
“a person’s sexual orientation or preference.
plural noun: sexualities
“people with proscribed sexualities”
synonyms: sexual orientation, sexual preference, leaning, persuasion;”
The only person confused here is you. Sexual orientation. Do you really not understand what that means??? Gay men love dick! They think vaginas are nasty. No, really, ask them. Ask a gay man why he doesn’t like women and the answer in most cases have nothing to do with their minds. Many gay men are accused of being like women. Many gay men have plenty of female friends that they click with mentally. But when it comes down to it, what sexually turns them on is the male body AND male genitals. You can hold on to your opinions no matter how false they are. That’s your business. But please, do not try to tell me or anyone else, what turns us on and why. You just got done in another post, acknowledging that trans people want gender to win out over sex socially as well and yet here you are basically denying the reality of things now.
Again, you seem like a very young person who has little experience with the real world outside of your mind. Furthermore, once again, the definition of homosexuality is described as desiring the same SEX aka the same biological sex. What, are you going to tell me that you’ve never met plenty of gay men that act, walk, talk, and dress like women?!?! Or that you’ve never seen gay women that act, walk, talk, and dress like men?!?! Do you really not see how that reality negates your logic?!?!
When human beings lust/fantasize about sex, they imagine everything from the body to THE GENITALS!!! Have you ever been to a porn site?! Why do you think porn is broken down into categories like shemales/tranny, gay, etc??? Why do you think popular dating apps such as Tinder, had to change their app after a lot of trans women were being flagged after men found out they were trans? You’re clearly not in touch with reality.
“Whether that persons specific genitals is an issue is something that comes later, and in our current society is often a turn-off once they’re known (and in the case of men, can lead to unwarranted violence).”
It’s still shocking to see just how out of touch with reality so many of you trans people are. You refer to it as genitals but we both know it’s part of the whole package which is biological sex, words that transgender people never want to say. It should NOT come later. That is why it can lead to violence. Unwarranted you say?! The fact that it can lead to such an extreme reaction, is more than enough to let you know just what a big deal it is to the other person. Again, you already know most men are not interested and you also know that you don’t have the right to choose what is okay for other people. So what do you expect to have happen??? You think, hope that you can hide it long enough for the guy to just fall for you and then it just won’t matter anymore?!?! Come on back to earth! Everyone deserves to know BEFORE even a first date, what your biological sex is. Period! Choose anything else at your own risk.
I’m going to be making two point.
1) you specified in the post I responded to that trans people have to reveal that they are getting married, when I responded that I couldn’t find anything to support that you linked to articles discussing sexual assault. And even in those articles it said that they could face sexual assault charges, not that the would. This is because to date only one trans person has been convicted of this, and that is because they blindfolded their partner and then used dildos in place of a real penis. How exactly does this relate to the law on getting married in the UK?
2) You have a predisposition to believe that we are all liars, and use belittling statements to reduce the validity of our arguments in your own eyes. As such I don’t believe that it is actually possible to have a reasonable debate with you as you are obviously suffering from the dunning kruger effect, and are dogmatically, and ideologically opposed to trans people in general. I believe that my arguments thus far will stand on their own for future readers, and with your contributions and your absolute refusal to move away from an outdated medical understanding of sex and gender. You also claim to have more knowledge about the area of discussion without ever revealing what gives you that knowledge or status, this is an appeal to authority of the worst sort.
“1)” You have web access and the ability to use google. Use it research your countries laws. First enacted in the 1973 Matrimonial Causes Act and then in the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, it was reaffirmed.
What makes this so revealing is the fact that so many pro-trans people are against having to reveal their biological sex to the person they claim to love and want to spend the rest of their lives with. The ONLY reason trans people are against this is that they fear how their partner will feel about them after learning the truth. Not revealing it, would result in a life of lies. Medical issues will arise and more lies will have to be told in order to keep the secret. What happens if the trans woman someday develops prostate cancer. Will she lie to her husband about what type of cancer she has?!?! There is no such thing as keeping big secrets forever. Sooner or later the truth comes to light.
“2) You have a predisposition to believe that we are all liars”
“You also claim to have more knowledge about the area of discussion without ever revealing what gives you that knowledge or status, this is an appeal to authority of the worst sort.”
” I believe that my arguments thus far will stand on their own for future readers, and with your contributions and your absolute refusal to move away from an outdated medical understanding of sex and gender. ”
LOL!!!! You are more than welcome to continue living in denial. Your words do not equal truth and reality no matter how many times you state them. YES!!!! People who read the thread in the future will be able to see who is full of BS and who is not. Anyone reading this thread can see how you’ve managed to ignore all of the many points that I’ve made because you know that you have no valid argument against them.
You now claim that my views on sex and gender are outdated. LOL!!! Outdated even though they come from current published data from very credible sources?!?! Right! The APA, GLAAD and many peer-reviewed sources, are all in agreement about biological sex and gender today, yet somehow they are all outdated according to you and other trans people who don’t like what your biological sex is.
As I’ve stated elsewhere, no matter what you call it (biological sex or otherwise), there are two groups and ALL people belong to ONE of those two groups (excluding people with an intersex condition). Almost ALL transgender people belong to one of those two groups. That IS the key part of the definition of transgender. Those two groups are known as biological male and biological female. No matter what anyone considers to be biological sex now or tomorrow, those two groups will ALWAYS exist. There will always be human beings born with the ability to seed birth or give birth. And most of humanity will always have the desire to be with ONE or the group as a matter of natural desire that can’t be twisted any more than words could be twisted to make a gay person straight.
You can dance around it all day and night but we both know that ONLY reason you and other trans people have such an issue with biological sex is because it excludes you from a group that you’d very much like to belong to.
Yay, more ad hominem arguments from you, complete with a lack of supporting evidence, strawman arguments, and appeal to authority. Any more logical fallacies you want to add, as I’m only missing a couple from your articles before I’ve got a full house.
Btw, for the article in question, all of your arguments fall foul of the false premise fallacy
“Yay, more ad hominem arguments from you, complete with a lack of supporting evidence, strawman arguments, and appeal to authority. Any more logical fallacies you want to add, as I’m only missing a couple from your articles before I’ve got a full house. Btw, for the article in question, all of your arguments fall foul of the false premise fallacy”
That right there, ladies and gentlemen, is the trans “woman” gameplay at work. You’re once again, talking in circles, not making any points and about anything specific. Around nearly every corner, you’ve been schooled and that is exactly why you’ve failed to argue against nearly all of the many points that I’ve made.
You’re actually trying to discredit something that you clearly know nothing about. Something that as a trans person in the UK, you should have already well educated yourself on. Seriously ridiculous just how clueless you are while you pretend to be so knowledgeable.
Again, that which takes place within your mind does not equal the reality the world lives outside of your thoughts, opinions, assumptions, and daydreams.
A few days ago, you falsely accused me of ignoring your questions while I responded to Kirstin. I then asked you what questions did you ask me, that which I ignored. You had nothing. So while you’re busy making up fiction about me not being able to answer questions you claimed to have asked me, the reality is that it is you who can not respond to 90% of the content within the comments I’ve posted directly to you.
Regardless, you can ignore and dodge the facts that I’ve presented and you can continue to talk in circles all day and night but the facts will remain: you are not a biological female because you are a biological male. When it comes to relationships or even the desire/lust over having sex with someone, most of us cisgender people, around the world, have ZERO desire to be with you or any other trans person because our natural desire is to seek out people that are of the opposite biological sex. That is the foundation of all arguments trans related.
Part 2:
“But here’s another thing that’s also fairly specific to men (and more than one older trans person has told me about having this experience), when they’re originally told that the person is trans, they say that they understand and continue to date the person until they get them into bed, at which point they’re shocked and upset to find out something they were told before. But equally, it’s also men that won’t leave women alone even if they’re a lesbian, saying things like how do you know if you’ve never had a man? Given that you don’t hear about the same dogged determination as a common thing from straight women coming onto gay men (or even just uninterested men), I wonder what’s to blame on that one?”
That entire paragraph is nothing more than gibberish BS that sounds like it came from the mind of a child. What’s to “blame on that one” is your ill logic. There is no one size fits all! I don’t care what someone told you. Trans people lie. A LOT! I’m not willing to take the word of what trans people claim happened/happens. Also, I can not speak for every last cisgender man on earth. I can only speak for myself and for all of the men I do know. I would never beat up a trans person but if somehow I got to know a trans person and didn’t know they were trans until sometime later, I would be very angry, and I would just walk away from that as quickly as possible and never look back. I can say that it’s a very good guess that the same could be said about just about every guy I know.
“But equally it’s also men that won’t leave women alone even if they’re a lesbian, saying things like how do you know if you’ve never had a man? ”
What you’re saying is neither here nor there. In other words, who cares?! What does that have to do with anything related to the subject at hand?!?!?! Furthermore, it sounds like you’re really just making something up based on a stereotype you’ve imagined, seen on TV and or heard about once before. Here in the U.S. in my social circle, that is not something that happens often at all. And if it were to happen, what does it have to do with men not wanting to have sex with someone who has a penis?!
“It’s also interesting that you list a whole host of things that mean that sex sells – when it’s actually not whether the person has specific genitals, but whether they have specific characteristics that are strongly associated with members of a certain gender. Only one of those things in your list cares about what genitals”
Do you just invent your own brand of logic or are you seriously that clueless?! You really have no idea what you’re talking about. Again, perception and expectations! When we men see a hot girl on TV in a bikini, we don’t consider her gender because we assume that she is a biological female. We assume ALL hot looking females are biological females. Good Lord!
You are so filled with BS I have to ask myself why I continue to take the time to reply. Sex sells! The idea of sex sells. The idea of sex is that the person you are looking at, is exactly what you want; a hot biological female with a real VAGINA! If a trans girl looks hot and models or does commercials, she will have the same impact on men just as long as the men don’t know that they are looking at a trans woman. To you trans people, you actually think that is some kind of a win. It’s not! It’s not because it’s not REAL! Fooling someone into thinking something that is not true or allowing them to assume something that you know is not true, is NOT equal to it being true!!!
“porn, and guess what, statistics would suggest that actually straight men like transpeople sexually”
Please! Enough with your BS! From the article you linked (how long did it take you to hunt that down?!): “The GameLink data is intriguing, but by no means scientific. To date, no other online porn company has revealed statistical data about the transgender viewing habits of its customers.”
Also, the article stated: “Perhaps even more surprising than the numbers is who’s watching it. California and New York were the top two states—accounting for 17.6 and 7.3 percent of transgender porn sales on GameLink last year. Not a big surprise, given the generally liberal leanings of both states. And Illinois’ entry at No. 3—with 5.6 percent—may not surprise some people.
But the fourth-biggest consumer of transgender porn is Texas, making up 5 percent of the GameLink market. And Arizona is fifth at 4.9 percent.”
What their data indicates is that the porn consumed through just ONE porn company, suggests that in the two biggest states, CA and NY, less than 10% of consumed porn in those states, is trans porn. In the other states with the most consumed porn from that one company, less than 5% consumed porn in those states, is trans porn. What the data doesn’t tell you is how many of those trans porn viewers are straight, gay, or bisexual. In the U.S. Regardless, that data indicates that 90% and more, of all of their porn viewership, is NOT for trans porn. I’ve said dozens of times by now that “most” of us have ZERO interest in anything sexual having to do with trans people. 90% (even 75%) is considered “most.” So tell, what point do you think the article makes for you, that which negates anything that I’ve stated?
“it’s actually quicker and more hygienic for me to sit down to pee.”
You’re full of BS, dude! There is nothing “hygienic” about coming into contact with a public toilet. You do it because sure it’s a habit by now but it’s not done because it’s natural to you. You do it because it’s what biological women with a vagina do. You do it because it makes you feel a little more like them and a little less like what you are biological.
What I wrote to Kirtsin: ” A formed habit is not the same thing as being natural. Since the beginning of man, males have stood or kneeled to pee. Do you know what a chamber pot is? It would have been very difficult for someone like you with our logic, to have used one to pee sitting down.
Again, if you know anything about potty training then you should understand that toilets are not meant to ever have a penis enter them. That’s not only just nasty, it is also not a very clean thing to do. But hey, it’s your body; do with it whatever you’d like to.”
Hello MalibuGuy,
We have to stop meeting like this or people will begin to talk.
You are right. Girls follow female behavior–mimic is the word put forward–but then again, you mimic male behavior, or do you sit to pee?
You asked about what makes a person realize they are trans. I’ll speak from personal experience. As toddlers (2-1/2 years old) I asserted I was assigned the wrong gender, so that’s what makes me “trans.” According to the aricle, likely the BSTC is female or i would not assert it.
Today we are taken to specialists who determine if this is a sincere assertion. If the child is adamant about the “opposite” gender, letting the child express as the “opposite” gender is done on an experimental basis. If the child keeps insisting, then the trial periods might be extended up to and including full time so I can socialize as a female.
If this continues into puberty, at the stage of Tanner 2, I would get puberty blockers. This is usually at 13/14 years of age. Puberty is put on hold and the unwanted puberty is stopped. I would be evaluated to make sure this is working for me and that there were no regrets. Believe me, there would be none in my case! In high school, I would continue with blockers and female socialization, cross-sex hormones, and at age 15/17 depending if I still felt this was the right path for me. I would then develop along natal female lines–hips widen, breasts develop, female shape, voice stays in female range, no male body hair. No feed for facial surgery, electrolysis, voice surgery, or breast augmentation. Height would be in female range. The fact that I was boy assigned at birth would have little influences socially, mentally, or physically although I would be barren, but then again, I have NO desire to make another girl pregnant and at 18 I can have surgery so regular sexual relations are possible either with a cis het guy, or if I am gay, with a lesbian, however I would roll.
Again, I ask, other than the fact we were born trans instead of cis–no one is arguing otherwise–is there any reason not to transition, especially in light of the article above about the BSTc and gender identity? It seems silly to make someone be a boy who has the BSTc of a girl.
No?
@Virginia, Well said, and as an addition to that, think of all the money that will have been saved by not needing to treat an adult person that has the wrong body for their brain, including surgical intervention for the secondary sexual characteristics that developed due to going through the wrong puberty.
“characteristics that developed due to going through the wrong puberty.”
Your choice of words crafted to make it seem as if something is wrong with the body. The human body goes through its proper development. If anything, the brain or something in it is not right for the body. Your logic is exactly the reason for serious issues with transgender relations with cisgender people.
You make it seem as if it’s possible to “correct” (transform) the biological sex of the human body from one to the other. In reality, it is not possible so are left with people in society that just don’t fit in because their desire is at war with reality and the war scars are almost always visible.
@MalibuGuy – Re: “characteristics that developed due to going through the wrong puberty.”
What do you think HRT, SRS, FFS, and the other treatments that trans people are offered are for exactly?
Or are you still going to be adamant that transpeople are biologically _________ even when someone that was assigned male at birth is pregnant with either a donated womb or a cloned womb? (I’d include mentions of the fact that they can make sperm from people’s cells but you’d still argue that the transman doesn’t have testicles of their own).
And I note that you’re only objecting to the idea that trans people (and the medical professionals that treat them) think that there is something wrong with their bodies.
As a parallel, if you develop prostate cancer and it turns out you have a very high chance of it due to your genetics, are you going to avoid treatment because it’s the body you were born in?
“What do you think HRT, SRS, FFS, and the other treatments that trans people are offered are for exactly?”
Please don’t waste your time and mine, asking me stupid questions. They are offered for the exact reasons that the medical professionals state they are offered for. To help the transgender person ease some of their gender dysphoria suffering. To help them feel more comfortable in their body. That does not translate to “the wrong puberty.” LOL!!! You have no idea just how crazy stupid that sounds.
“Or are you still going to be adamant that transpeople are biologically _________ even when someone that was assigned male at birth is pregnant with either a donated womb or a cloned womb?”
Again, I don’t live in the future (and neither do you). Don’t ask me what I may or may not do someday when something may or may not ever happen. We are right here, in reality, today. However, to attempt to answer your silly question, you need only comprehend what the word biological means. It is of nature as in of a natural occurrence. Do you not understand the differences between natural and manufactured?!?! Again, you can not become a biological female if you were born as a biological male. You can’t go back in time and have nature redesign you.
What you’re really asking is whether or not people like me would still refuse to accept trans women as being equal to biological women even if they could give birth. The answer to that question is YES I know without a doubt that I will never have any interest in dating/sleeping with or having any romantic involvement with a person that is not a biological female. Whether or not science figures out how to allow transwomen to give birth; does NOT result in them no longer being transwomen.
“(I’d include mentions of the fact that they can make sperm from people’s cells but you’d still argue that the transman doesn’t have testicles of their own).”
You’re talking about things that you have very little to no understanding of. I know far more about the subject than you do. It’s really pathetic to see you throw out whatever you can think of, not realizing that the person that you’re arguing with, understands much more than you do, the subject at hand.
“And I note that you’re only objecting to the idea that trans people (and the medical professionals that treat them) think that there is something wrong with their bodies.”
What in the world are you talking about or trying to say?! Where did I state that there is something wrong with trans people’s bodies?! A trans person body is 100% as it was designed to be as in one complete biological sex. The problem is that for reasons that the medical sciences community does NOT yet know/understand, with the minds of trans people, they feel as if that body is the wrong body, the wrong sex.
“As a parallel, if you develop prostate cancer and it turns out you have a very high chance of it due to your genetics, are you going to avoid treatment because it’s the body you were born in?”
LOL!! Another comment of yours that makes no sense to me. Perhaps I just don’t understand the context that these comments of yours belong to. Again, what is it that you’re trying to say? I’m again just going to assume that you are a very young person and that that is the reason for the talking in circles.
“Hello MalibuGuy,
We have to stop meeting like this or people will begin to talk.”
I guess that’s transgender humor, lost on me.
“You are right. Girls follow female behavior–mimic is the word put forward–but then again, you mimic male behavior, or do you sit to pee?”
I stand to pee because that is what comes naturally to me as a biological male with a penis. Even in parts of the world where people do not have toilets, biological males stand to pee. There are gender habits and there are biological habits. They are not always one in the same and you know that. A transgender woman with a penis, walking into a women’s bathroom and sitting down to pee with her penis, is not naturally due to biological sex. It is done because the transgender woman knows that that is what biological females with vaginas do. Biological females sit down because it’s the only way to do so without peeing on themselves. All human beings, even as babies, will try to eat by using their hands to direct food into their mouth. That is biological instinct for both males and females. It is natural and easier for human beings to reach for food rather than to bring our mouth to the food like dogs and cats do.
Sitting on a public bathroom toilet is not the cleanest way to pee with a penis. Matter of fact, the idea of a penis hanging down into the toilet, is just nasty. It’s potty training 101. Boys are taught to pee first and then sit down if you’re going to 2nd base. A penis should never go inside a toilet bowl.
“You asked about what makes a person realize they are trans. I’ll speak from personal experience.”
No! I did not ask you that question. Either you misread the question or my guess is that you didn’t want to answer the question I asked and or wanted the opportunity to tell part of your story. As I have come to understand, most trans people are very narcissistic. They seem to more often than not, assume that everyone wants to know their story. Everything is me, me, me.
What I asked is what makes someone transgender as in what is the definition of being transgender?! Why is someone a transgender woman rather than just a woman?!
“As toddlers (2-1/2 years old) I asserted I was assigned the wrong gender, so that’s what makes me “trans.””
What makes you trans is that your biological sex and your gender identity do not match. You are not trans because someone made a mistake when you were born. It is just so absurd to claim to be something because someone “made a written mistake” when you were born. Doctors say gender but what they technically mean is biological sex. The sex of the baby. They say gender because, in our society, most people associate gender with sex even though gender can mean sex or several other things.
A doctor can not know the gender identity of a newborn other than to guess based upon the fact that most people have a gender identity that matches their biological sex. Biological sex is easy enough to determine in 98% of all newborns because they are not intersex so we know that what’s between their legs is accurate (98% of the time).
“If this continues into puberty, at the stage of Tanner 2, I would get puberty blockers. This is usually at 13/14 years of age.”
You continue to describe the world in which you wish you had been raised in. Where are you getting your data from? Most trans children still do not grow up according to the plan that you’ve outlined. Sure that would be good for them but that’s not how it goes for most of them. Being transgender does not give you the right to just make up stats related to trans people. Also, have you forgotten just how many trans kids run away from home because their parents are not supportive of them wanting to transition?!?!?! Furthermore, many medical professionals do not agree with you. Some of them believe that children should wait because in some cases, the children grow out of it. Not everyone ends up like you. Did you know that there are some trans people who regret their transition and wish they could take back SRS? Yes, I know that is not the majority.
Being such an educated trans person as you claim to be, I’m sure you know who Dr. John Money was and how he convinced a young boy by the name of David Reimer and his family, to transition the boy into a trans girl, who ended up committing suicide because he was not happy being a girl.
“Believe me, there would be none in my case! In high school, I would continue with blockers and female socialization”
Like I said, you’re talking about what you wish you would have done. That is neither here nor there. You’re daydreaming out loud.
“I would then develop along natal female lines–hips widen, breasts develop, female shape, voice stays in female range, no male body hair. No feed for facial surgery, electrolysis, voice surgery, or breast augmentation. Height would be in female range.”
While you’re busy daydreaming about what could have been, you’re also busy once again, making claims that are not medically factual and never 100% of the time. First of all, not all people respond to HRT the same way, no matter what age they begin. Either you don’t know these facts or you are just as dishonest as most other trans women seem to be. But then again, I think that was you who stated that you have no problem hiding your biological sex from dates.
It’s as if you’re trying to sell me, whoever else is reading this, and or yourself, on your fantasy that drugs can transform a person from one biological sex to the other. No matter what a trans girl looks like, she is still a trans girl. She will never stop being trans even if she can “pass” very well and never talks about being trans. Trans is not just a thought. It is about your true biological development, that which begins 9-months before you enter the world.
“Again, I ask, other than the fact we were born trans instead of cis–no one is arguing otherwise–is there any reason not to transition”
A) You were not born trans instead of cis. There goes that trans wordplay BS again. You were born as a biological male. You are still a biological male. You will die as a biological male no matter what you make yourself look like.
B) I NEVER stated any such thing about whether or not trans people should “transition.” You are manufacturing an argument to try and take the place of my actual argument. You’re talking about trans people should “transition.” I’m talking about the fact that trans women and biological women are not one in the same. I’m talking about the fact that a transgender woman, is a biological male, not a biological female. I’m talking about the fact that to most (I said most not all as in everyone) people anywhere on the planet when it comes to romance/sex/dating/marriage, care far more about biological sex than gender identity. Those are my arguments/points, those which have nothing to do with whether or not trans people should “transition.”
“especially in light of the article above about the BSTc and gender identity? It seems silly to make someone be a boy who has the BSTc of a girl.”
Again, there are NO conclusive data sets that indicate as a matter of medical science fact, that trans women have the same brains as biological women. The medical sciences community still does NOT know what exactly it is that are the constant differences between the brains of biological females and biological males. In other words, we still do NOT know whether there are really male and female brains other than the fact that a brain came from the body of a biological female or biological male.
The so-called conclusions that you draw upon, are nothing more than pro-trans propaganda in reaching conclusions that the majority of the medical sciences community has not arrived at. Again:
Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic
Abstract
“Whereas a categorical difference in the genitals has always been acknowledged, the question of how far these categories extend into human biology is still not resolved. Documented sex/gender differences in the brain are often taken as support of a sexually dimorphic view of human brains (“female brain” or “male brain”). However, such a distinction would be possible only if sex/gender differences in brain features were highly dimorphic (i.e., little overlap between the forms of these features in males and females) and internally consistent (i.e., a brain has only “male” or only “female” features).
Here, analysis of MRIs of more than 1,400 human brains from four datasets reveals extensive overlap between the distributions of females and males for all gray matter, white matter, and connections assessed. Moreover, analyses of internal consistency reveal that brains with features that are consistently at one end of the “maleness-femaleness” continuum are rare. Rather, most brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males.
Our findings are robust across sample, age, type of MRI, and method of analysis. These findings are corroborated by a similar analysis of personality traits, attitudes, interests, and behaviors of more than 5,500 individuals, which reveals that internal consistency is extremely rare. Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.”
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.abstract
Is the Brain Gendered? A Q&A with Harvard’s Catherine Dulac
“Indeed, it is assumed that the male and the female brains are very different because males and female behaviors differ so significantly. But over the last few decades, neuroscientists have been looking for major anatomical differences and did not find that many.
Actually, they’ve found surprisingly few differences: more neurons or more neuronal spines here and there in one sex or the other, with great variations from one individual to the other but that’s about it. So there is a paradox between this apparent similarity of the brains of males and females and the strikingly different behaviors they engage in.”
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/
Hello MalibuGuy
In a crazy way I have grown sorta fond of you . . . no . . . not in THAT way.
You are a kid–about the age if I had a grandson. You say you are in your 20s, and so I appreciate your plight. Maybe it’s because you met two trans girls–a statistically unlikely even unless you are hanging at the Queen Mary bar–but you are not and don’t worried. Don’t be! We are not coming for you.
No one will pull you in. As I suggested earlier, a transsexual will listen in and around the conversation as you say how you want to have kids, etc., etc., and will figure out what you want.
From the film “Risky Business” you imagine the scene with Jackie,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGMbRRBMKt4
She is a stereotype. But there are other trans girls more like Lana, the girl every boy on the lake wants. In actuality it is the scene from “Risky Business,” Love On a Real Train, which in my experiences is what sex with a trans girl is like and the kind of girl you can expect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8uuQp95vYw&t=48s
Happily for you, you will experience neither! for the trans woman will see you are NOT the one, and believe me NO stealth passing post-op will do that to you. She’ll respect you too much, and she willy truly understanding your needs and choices, and she will move and leave you behind without making so much as a ripple. Fear not. You can look forward to an ending of your choice more like the film “The Graduate,”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TP4MuVnS2A
Yes, I use motion picture analogies, but they are our common coin and my daily business. Who is happier in the end, Joel or Benjamin? Maybe neither.
“You are a kid–about the age if I had a grandson.”
lol! Is that your attempt at being condescending and to suggest that I am too young to know what I’m talking about therefore all that I present is false, meanwhile your words are wise and true?! I’m not concerned with your personal opinions.
“Maybe it’s because you met two trans girls–a statistically unlikely even unless you are hanging at the Queen Mary bar–but you are not and don’t worried. Don’t be! We are not coming for you.”
Again, I live in Malibu CA (Los Angeles County). My office is in Santa Monica, not too far away from the Sunset Strip. Los Angeles is filled with trans people and all other types of LGBTQ people. I’ve been in Starbucks when Bruclyn Jenner stopped by. I’ve also been pumping gas next to Jenner. What are the odds of running into Jenner twice?! As I’ve already stated, even when a trans woman “passes” very well, the voice and perhaps something else, gives them away. Worried you suggest?! No! I’m not worried about a trans person hitting on me (it already happened at a gas station on Wilshire in Santa Monica one night). While you’re busy trying to manufacture reality for me, reality is taking place. Again, I’ve made it very clear that the lies and other BS are my only concern. As I’ve already stated, I don’t care what bathrooms trans people use, who they date or marry (as long as it’s not me). I don’t care where trans people choose to live or work or anything else they do. What I do care about is the truth! Men and women are not some interchangeable children’s toy. There are people who are biologically male, female or intersex. There is no such thing as going from biologically male to female. Gender can be your focus but you can not and will not ever be able to force me and the rest of the world to choose gender identity over biological sex when it comes to relationships.
“No one will pull you in. As I suggested earlier, a transsexual will listen in and around the conversation as you say how you want to have kids, etc., etc., and will figure out what you want.”
Again, that is of very little concern to me. Most trans people do not pass well enough to fool me. You can post all the links you want to trans girls in heavy makeup, dresses, and Instagram-style photo filters, looking like biological women and 9 times out of 10, there will be something that in-person (like the voice), would give them away. BTW’ you really don’t seem to have any clue how “a transsexual will listen in and around the conversation as you say how you want to have kids, etc., etc., and will figure out what you want” creepy/sick/freakish/twisted that sounds, do you?!?!?! Like a con artist trying to figure out if he can con the person he just met. If a trans person was an honest and unselfish person, they would just let their potential date know BEFORE a date even happens, that they are trans. If it’s no big deal then there should be no reason to not tell them. ANYTHING that you KNOW has a good chance of being a deal breaker, IS something that the other person should be made aware of, MUCH SOONER rather than later. That is called living a life with integrity. I once met a girl and got her number. We talked on the phone twice before going out on our first date. She told me over the phone after that 2nd call which ended up being a long conversation, that she can’t have kids. She then told me that she always tells guys that just to get it out of the way so they know what they may be getting involved with because she knows that a lot of guys do want to have kids someday. Integrity!
“in my experiences is what sex with a trans girl is like and the kind of girl you can expect.”
Again, its as if you’re trying to sell transgender women on someone. One more time. Only about 1/3 of trans people undergo SRS. That means most trans people, have their biological genitals intact. Having sex with a transgender woman without SRS, would be liking having sex with a cisgender male who happens to perhaps have breasts. And for the transwomen who have had SRS done, a “neovagina” is NOT a real vagina. it’s a simulation of the real thing. With regards to sexual intercourse, it is nothing more than a somewhat shallow hole. It does not self-lubricate like a real vagina can. It also is not able to cleanse itself like a real vagina does. It’s inverted penis skin that has the same basic hygiene properties as if someone surgically sewed up 2 sides of an armpit, leaving a hole on one side. We all know what happens to armpits even without being sewed up. The vagina has muscles surrounding it, that which can contract and expand. All of these elements combined make for a unique organ that surgery can not yet manufacture anywhere near perfection.
“Happily for you, you will experience neither! for the trans woman will see you are NOT the one”
You’ve now stated that several times. I didn’t need your assurance the first time around nor now. Regardless, my point still remains that most straight men feel the same as I do and want no part in ever “experiencing” a trans woman and that is why trans women who can pass well and feel they don’t need to be upfront out about their biological sex, are nothing more than selfish and shady human beings.
“Yes, I use motion picture analogies, but they are our common coin and my daily business.”
80’s Tom Cruise films, were not a part of my childhood as I had not even been born yet. So again with your assumptions that your way is the way for all. My father is an IP and entertainment lawyer of over 25-years at the 3nd largest L.A. firm. Other family members in the film business but I have not seen any of your referenced films and I have no desire to. Again, we all see the world through our own eyes and we all have the right to choose what is best for us. When you try to hide improtant elements, you are denying other people of their right to choose what is best for them.
for some reason i cant hit reply to the correct post
well sitting to pee comes naturally to me so i guess you deffended my statement about me being a girl altho it didnt need defending i know myself 100 times better then you do
#proud to be a girl